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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel ball, Motor mount, bottom

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/28/2003 : 10:31:31

My son and I replaced the motor mount and keel ball, they are best done as two man jobs.
The keel ball could not have gone better, we each were bleeding, but frayed SS is a cruel mistress! The old ball came out very easily, the frayed end of the cable would not pass by until it was out. The new one was easy to put in, the new cable should be up the pipe before you put the new ball in, it helps hold the new ball while you put the pin back in. The new exhaust hose needed to be cut with a hack saw, the part ID is in the photos. The new special band clamps worked nicely, they have no holes in the gear slots, it allows them to cinch up better. Two vice grips made getting the clamp back on the winch possible. As per advise, we put as much drag on the cable as we wrapped it as we could. I am not sure about how much tail there should be, the old one layed across the bottom of the winch barrel and was smashed and frayed from being wrapped on. I have less tail on the new one and it "flicks" the cable as it wraps. The job was les than an hour if you do not count the 15 minutes getting the cotter pin out of the keel clevis!
The motor mount is a Garlick 70901. Its mounting pattern was wider than the old mount and required two new holes. We filled the old holes with West System epoxy (with filler), we let that cure over a week. We used Starboard on the outside and on the inside to try and deal with the oil canning that had occured on the outside of the transom. I have never worked with Starboard before. I wish I had a table saw! My Circle saw with a generic blade was very hard to keep on a straight line because of how soft the Starboard is. (My technique level with tools is poor, a more experienced person would know ways to keep the line straight.) The mount needed adjusting with a pry bar to work smoothly, the spring loaded, notched races that move past the position bar needed "opening". I am now uncertain whether I have gained any depth. It raises very high, but from photos I have I am concerned that I have not gained in the down position, which was my goal. A forum contributor warned about this. We sure have tall transoms!
I included a couple of pictures of my finished bottom, It was a lot more money than I thought it would be. I wish I had taken the advise of this forum and done it myself.

http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/PhotoAlbum36.html

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/28/2003 12:31:58

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2003 : 11:18:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My Circle saw with a generic blade was very hard to keep on a straight line because of how soft the Starboard is. (My technique level with tools is poor, a more experienced person would know ways to keep the line straight.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To maintain a straight edge when using a circular saw, attach a rip fence to the saw to use as a guide.

Or simply clamp on a guide fence made from a straight piece of wood.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2003 : 12:30:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 

To maintain a straight edge when using a circular saw, attach a rip fence to the saw to use as a guide.
Or simply clamp on a guide fence made from a straight piece of wood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My rip fence was too short, It's the wood fence kind of technique that I am lacking.

Thanks

Edited by - on

Doug G.
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2003 : 15:49:18

Frank, I have a cable and ball change coming up in the future. I do appreciate your photos. I am planning my next years boat service schedule and budget.

How long had it been since your ball and cable were changed?

I assume all of your wear is from fresh water, and a regularly trailered boat. My C25 has always been in the same lake, no trailer, and prior replacements are a guess. I leave my swing keel down as did the immediate P.O. I can't see any cable wear or erosions, my hose and clamps look newish. I will probably wait on more season before hauling it out. Keep the hepful photos coming.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2003 : 17:43:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug G.
 Frank, I have a cable and ball change coming up in the future. I do appreciate your photos. I am planning my next years boat service schedule and budget.

How long had it been since your ball and cable were changed?

I assume all of your wear is from fresh water, and a regularly trailered boat. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Ball is only a couple of dollars and the cable is $50-ish. My boat has sailed on Kansas lakes since it was delivered. In Kansas we launch and retrieve with the seasons. I do not think my boat has sailed all that much actual time on it's keel, I was surprised by the ball wear. I almost wonder if too light of use lets the ball and pin sieze, making it subject to being sawed in two. Thank you for the coment on the pictures, I hope they help.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2003 : 17:57:10

I have been reading some interesting commentary on roller-swaged stainless cable fittings (like Catalina provides on the keel cable).

The authors of these commentaries view such fittings as failures just waiting to happen due to:

1 the trapping of saltwater in the fitting and
2) the high probability that the swaging process can introduce micro-cracks in the stainless cable, which gives the corrosion a starting point.

The reading I've done on C25 cable failures seem to support their views... most all the failures are right at the rolled swage, with some occuring in a very short time.

They advocate the use of 'sta-lok' or 'norseman' replacable fittings for any cable end subjected to saltwater (including the lower end of shrouds). A good part of the benefit is that properly installed replacable fittings use a sealing agent to protect the end of the wire from the corrosive effects of salt water.

I think I'll be switching to a sta-lok fitting for my keel cable on my next haul-out.. will probably make up my own shrouds using replacable fittings too... not that hard, nor that expensive.

At any rate, here's a link to one of the commentators.. (previously posted on another topic)

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/Reference%20start.htm

Edited by - on

GeorgeB
1st Mate

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90 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2003 : 14:07:32

Frank,

Nice pictures thanks for sharing them. When I replaced my ball it looked very similar to yours, almost sawed in half. However my cable was in almost perfect condition the only meat hooks were high up on the cable, where it was constantly being compressed against the drum.

I thought long and hard about using a norseman or sta-lock. My personal experiences with the swing keel system have been great ( over twenty years as an owner with out a "incident").

My boat had been kept in freshwater year round, keel up, most of those years.

Has anyone out there actually used a norseman style fitting on the keel pendant?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2003 : 14:26:49

Here's an interesting Practical Sailor article on Sta-Lock, Castlok, and Norsemen terminals titled, [url="http://www.practical-sailor.com/newspics/charts/8710terminals.pdf"]Let's Talk Rigging[/url].

Edited by - on

paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 10:17:26

Thanks for the pictures! It really shows that you don't get any extra depth from the new mount. Since I'm going to do the same job this spring I think I'll save the $100 and go with the 71090 rather then the 71091. I don't need extra height.

My only thought is that from your pictures it looks like the mounting pad is much larger then you need, and looks like it adds about 2 to 3". Is there any harm in cutting a little of the top of the mounting pad? Would it put the motor controls in the way of that mount lift control thing? Just a thought.

Pat

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 11:19:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paking
 Thanks for the pictures! It really shows that you don't get any extra depth from the new mount. Since I'm going to do the same job this spring I think I'll save the $100 and go with the 71090 rather then the 71091. I don't need extra height.

My only thought is that from your pictures it looks like the mounting pad is much larger then you need, and looks like it adds about 2 to 3". Is there any harm in cutting a little of the top of the mounting pad? Would it put the motor controls in the way of that mount lift control thing? Just a thought.

Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There was considerable oil-canning, (cupped in) of the transom at the old mounting holes. I used an oversized piece of Starboard to attempt to spread that compression load out some. I used the same height for the holes as the old ones, allowing me to drill only two new holes on the left side. That also allowed the bolts to enter the boat at the shelf area inside. I am going to lower the mount so the two bottom bolts are in the area below the shelf. I will be able to get to them from the gudgeon access plate at the foot of the berth.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 11:30:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...I am now uncertain whether I have gained any depth. It raises very high, but from photos I have I am concerned that I have not gained in the down position, which was my goal...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paking Thanks for the pictures! It really shows that you don't get any extra depth from the new mount. Since I'm going to do the same job this spring I think I'll save the $100 and go with the 71090 rather then the 71091. I don't need extra height.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Couldn't the new mount, with its extra travel, be mounted lower on the transom thereby adding the increased travel to the depth instead of the raised height?

And if this were not possible because of the mount location on the transom, what about lowering the motor mounting pad a few inches?

Edited by - on

paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 13:27:59

Hi,

A previous thread discussing this said to keep it above the shelf inside. I'm not sure if this is just for access, or for some other reason.

Also, it looks like to go down he will also have to go left because the peice of starboard is almost off the transom in the pictures. Too much to the left and we'll hit the rudder!

I think I'd try lowering the mounting pad first.

Pat

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 16:27:46

Ah the mounting pad. Yes I did in fact try turning it 180 so I could use the holes in it. This thing is a complicated molded affair with lots of voids and "cells" to reduce material. There are also the springs that apply tension to the adjusting handle that require sockets to nest in. You can see the "loops" that engage the handle, what you don't see are the actual springs that pull on the loops, they are in holes in the pad and push against the aluminum chanel. The bottom line is that when I turned it upside down it looked like it would be great, then I noticed the aluminum channel the pad bolts too were too close to each other to allow the motor clamps to fit. The motor clamps must clamp above the bracket frame pieces. You can see he circle mark from the motor in the picture. That means the 2.5" I hoped to get would be reduced to about an inch, and that would be after a fair amount of remanufacturing of the pad to accomondate the springs and such. Maybe the thing to do is take the notched race bars and have two new ones made with a longer race. It looks to me like the bracket could keep going down far enough to accomplish what I need. In the up position the articulating arms are together, in the down position they are not.

Edited by - on

Denny
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2004 : 12:31:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 I have been reading some interesting commentary on roller-swaged stainless cable fittings (like Catalina provides on the keel cable).

The authors of these commentaries view such fittings as failures just waiting to happen due to:

1 the trapping of saltwater in the fitting and
2) the high probability that the swaging process can introduce micro-cracks in the stainless cable, which gives the corrosion a starting point.

The reading I've done on C25 cable failures seem to support their views... most all the failures are right at the rolled swage, with some occuring in a very short time.

They advocate the use of 'sta-lok' or 'norseman' replacable fittings for any cable end subjected to saltwater (including the lower end of shrouds). A good part of the benefit is that properly installed replacable fittings use a sealing agent to protect the end of the wire from the corrosive effects of salt water.

I think I'll be switching to a sta-lok fitting for my keel cable on my next haul-out.. will probably make up my own shrouds using replacable fittings too... not that hard, nor that expensive.

At any rate, here's a link to one of the commentators.. (previously posted on another topic)

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/Reference%20start.htm

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Very interesting. I have been going over some options on my fixer upper including conversion to a wing. I have found out that Catalina Direct doesn't want to ship a wing across the country to PA because of damage experienced in shipping. Also the cost may be prohibitive anyway. So I have been looking at some other options. I am a machinist at a large Pharmaceutical Co. and have experiance working with Stainless and other exotic metals. They make cable that is made out of Monel that is resistant to saltwater and other chemicals. The problem is it isn't as strong as Stainless size to size. I have taken the ball out and I could modify it to take a larger cable but I'm not sure of the rating of the original cable. There are a few different mechanical swag ends available at a local mechanical parts place including the Norceman. I think I can get the right wire combination to get it to freely bend around the existing winch drum. If you or any one else knows the working load of the original cable I could use it.

I also found that when they put a wood wedge in under the side of the winch to angle it, the center bolt on the starboard side bends the top plate because there is no support under it. I am making a aluminum wedge the full width to get rid of this condition. If I'm going to sail a swing keel I only want to worry about my sailing skills not a cable failure.

Denny

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2004 : 13:17:42

Monel does have a higher corrosion resistance than 316 stainless, but I think the real answer is in the quality of the termination itself. Another thought is that one should likely use the very best 316 cable you can find. There is anecdotal evidence floating around that all cable bearing the '316' tag is not created equal... ocean racers and long distance cruisers seem to be particular about their suppliers.

I've also considered going to a conventional swage-lock copper sleeve crimp (it forms an eye at the cable end). Mac's/Ventures used these... and I don't recall hearing too many keel cable failures on Macs. Mac's are prone to failures in the lateral direction due to the lightweight layup in the keel trunk and the undersize pivot pin.

(note: their keels are only 750 lbs or so, but the cable diameter was also smaller)

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2004 : 14:05:14

Denny .... some members have said that they were able to order their wing keels from Catalina (the factory) and "piggyback" their keel on a whole boat shipment to a dealer near you. This reduced costs a lot.

As for the cable, swage and so forth... use the factory supplied cable. Install the Catalina modified lifting bracket and inspect your system as part of every Spring commisioning. Enjoy your boat.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2004 : 11:26:15

[/quote]
Very interesting. I have been going over some options on my fixer upper including conversion to a wing. I have found out that Catalina Direct doesn't want to ship a wing across the country to PA because of damage experienced in shipping. Also the cost may be prohibitive anyway.
Denny
[/quote]

Hi Denny,

Sounds like your "fixer upper" is coming along well. After finally completing our swing to wing conversion and now finally having some time to sail moonglade with the new keel, I could not be more happy. With the sounds of your capabilities and perhaps equipment, you could probably convert yourself.

When we ordered our wing keel it took some convincing. CD explained the conversion was not worth the time and money, and shipping was next to impossible. I prefer to not take "no" for an answer so upon further discussion we discovered it was very easy for CD to ship keels with other boat deliveries. They can work it out for you. The freight from California to Florida was about $200. I had to drive down to Largo and pick up the keel with a trailer, and I had the advantage that the Largo location is building the larger Catalina boats, but once CD realized I intended to purchase a keel one way or the other they worked it out quite quickly. Perhaps CD could ship a keel to Largo and then piggy back it with a boat delivery to your area?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2004 : 12:12:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> once CD realized I intended to purchase a keel one way or the other they worked it out quite quickly. Perhaps CD could ship a keel to Largo and then piggy back it with a boat delivery to your area?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

CD told me to simply call Catalina and buy it from them since I would be having it shipped with boats to a dealer anyway, they saw no reason for them to be involved.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2004 : 12:34:08

[/quote]

CD told me to simply call Catalina and buy it from them since I would be having it shipped with boats to a dealer anyway, they saw no reason for them to be involved.
[/quote]

That might work very well. I used to buy all my parts (swing keel cables etc.) from Catalina before I discovered Catalina Direct. CD seems a little nicer to work with than Catalina in my experience.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2004 : 20:57:14

Having gotten a bid from a machine shop of $140 to replicate the side adjusters with more length. I chose to hack at them with my new drill press.

The addition of one "notch" added an amazing amount of travel

There are a couple subtle lines that line the two pictures up.
I think this is going to work!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2004 : 13:03:07

Frank... My outside Starboard backer is even larger than yours--extending almost to the edge of the transom and well below the bracket. I may have been the one who wrote about keeping the bolts above the shelf, but that was with a different bracket (Fulton). Putting two bolts below the shelf is fine, with a backer in there.

The key to anybody replacing a bracket is to measure the mounting board's height above waterline in the raised and lowered positions, figuring the depth you want for the shaft length you have and the amount of chop you anticipate. (You'll have to calculate the lowered position--you can't really extend the bracket until it's mounted.) I suggest allowing for the anticavitation plate to be at least 5" below the waterline. For a 25" shaft, that means the top of the bracket in the lowered position should be 20" above the waterline. Then, measure the depth and transom clearance of the motor when it's tilted to see if the bracket will lift the skeg clear of the water and the tiller handle will clear the transom and stern rail. You may need to block the bracket out from the transom for everything to clear when the bracket is raised and the motor is tilted.

BTW, I suggest a fine-toothed plywood blade on a circular saw for cutting Starboard--it's easier to control and makes a smoother cut.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/15/2004 13:05:38

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2004 : 21:35:16

Thanks Dave, I will look into a blade like that. I agree that there does not seem to be a reason to avoid the area below the shelf. It is easy to get to and easy to reinforce. I am anxious to try my mount now. There have been years where I have launched on the Ides of March, this may be one of them.

Edited by - on

paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 22:52:39

Thanks for the update Frank! I'm going to order the mount and make it my next project.

It's gotta warm up a bit first though!!!

Edited by - on

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