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Lateen rig for my tender?

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/22/2004 : 11:50:15

Hi all,

I decided to build the "nutshell" dingy as a tender for Hey Jude. The construction is pretty simple and fun so far. It is all stitched and screwed together. I am doing the fillets this week.

(All you row -v- wade folks just bite your tongues, cause I'm gonna ask about sails.)

I wonder about including in the breasthook and inside bow frame arrangements to step an unstayed mast as a cat rig. That made me wonder about rigs. I know a simple triangular sail would work as would a gaff rig, but both require a boom. In a 7.5ft. dingy the boom-Bam! effect might be overwhelming.

A guy suggested a lateen rig like he had on his 9ft. cat scow when he was a kid. He says the short mast and ease of managing the yard is good and the sail area was enough to really move the boat along in most points of sail. I am thinking of a 6ft mast and a 10ft yard with an almost triangular lateen sail (recut from old mainsail). The center section of the yard could be fixed to allow it to be disassembled into two pieces. Therefore the mast, yard and oars all fit inside the boat for travel. Because the dingy is flat bottomed (well, it has a skeg) I will probably also need to use a sideboard to the lee. A rudder/tiller would be nice. (One hand on the tiller, one hand on the sheet, my other hand swishing flys and my other hand holding a beer. Yeah!)

So, oh ye fonts of sail wisdom, whadda ya think?

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2004 : 13:06:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">both require a boom. In a 7.5ft. dingy the boom-Bam! effect might be overwhelming<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While I know little about lateen rigs (actually nothing), my tender has a "regular" triangular sail that works well most of the time. The boom is quite low, but it's very easy to lift it over my head while tacking. Jibing can be interesting, though -- normally I only do it in light winds (pulling in the mainsheet all the way before putting the tiller over), otherwise I usually do a quick 270 tack to keep things in control.

While my aluminum mast breaks down in three sections, making storage easy, the wood boom does not (but stores pretty well in the quarterberth of the C25).

My best upgrade was putting a window in the sail -- being able to see both sides (without having to constantly lift up a portion of the sail) makes sailing around crowded moorings much more enjoyable. It was pretty cheap, too.

One thing I wish I could do better is reef -- haven't figured that out yet. A kick-up rudder would also be nicer for beach landings.

Whichever rig you decide, I'm certain you will absolutely love it. Good luck! Post some pictures when you're done.

Edited by - RichardG on 01/22/2004 13:14:09

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2004 : 13:34:00

I would cruise the boat yards looking for dead Sunfish or Dolphins and the like, I would use the lateen rig from one of those. You would then have a parts source and end up with an A-frame for mastraising as a boon.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2004 : 15:01:50

Jim,

A couple of years ago, I built an 8' plywood pram (D4 with custom mods.). Here are a few thoughts regarding your questions based on my experience.

Re: "... breasthook and inside bow frame arrangements to step an unstayed mast as a cat rig."

There's a particular diameter of PVC pipe that about exactly slides over the base of many sailboard masts. I did a bit of research, and built a socket of that PVC into the forward seat to receive a carbon fiber sailboard mast. I modified the sailboard mast by shortening it to just under two boatlengths, and adding a slip joint in the middle like a fishing rod.

Re: "In a 7.5ft. dingy the boom-Bam! effect might be overwhelming. "

I expect that you're going to end up with a sail area around 35sq.ft. That, and an appropriately light boom, won't pack much of a whollop. If you're really concerned, consider using a batten in the foot of the sail rather than a rigid boom.

Re: "A guy suggested a lateen rig ... short mast and ease of managing the yard is good ... a 6ft mast and a 10ft yard with an almost triangular lateen sail ... the yard could be fixed to allow it to be disassembled into two pieces. Therefore the mast, yard and oars all fit inside the boat for travel." I have a lateen rig on an old Sunfish. Lateen rigs are very convenient to use, and perform well. The length of the boom and yard arm can make them difficult to store. I've read, and I now agree, that it's a very good idea for all the spars to fit inside the dinghy hull.

After studying Phil Bolger's "100 Small Boat Rigs", I chose the balanced lug rig. It's very simple, has short spars, very light sheet tension, is self-vanging, easily raised, lowered, and reefed while on the water, and lends itself well to a cut down recycled mainsail. The balanced lug rig center of effort is farther forward relative to the mast step than more popular designs, so it needs a very forward center of lateral resistance to avoid lee helm. That's more of a design challenge using leeboards than a centerboard or daggerboard. Another point in favor of the centerboard is the ability to easily tune the center of lateral resistance while sailing.

Re: "I will probably also need to use a [leeboard]."

I built my D4 with a leeboard on each side. They perform well, but add a lot of weight to the boat. The pivot mount fabrication required a lot of time and skill. If I had it to do over again, I'd build a centerboard (but not daggerboard) version.

Re: " A rudder/tiller would be nice."

For my D4 rudder assembly, I combined profiles and ideas from several 8' dinghy designs. The result has a foil shaped kick up blade and the tiller folds back along the trailing edge of the blade for storage. Photos and plans available.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2004 : 17:50:13

Discovery Channel had a neat program on last night about the Vikings. Their sails were actually woven wool rather than linen, and the main was a rectangle even though mounted on a lateen boom--enabling them to use it as a square sail for downwind sailing. They raced a Viking long boat rigged this way against a modern 29' Bermuda rigged sloop and the result was--a tie!

If you're not going to try this trick of using the only sail as a spinnaker then the catboat configuration would be simplest.

I can't imagine trying to set up a gaff rig unless you want to start getting into halyards and sheets--there needs to be some control method for the gaff boom.

One of the purposes of the gaff rig was to allow what was called a "fisherman's reef"--dropping the peak of the gaff boom to spill wind when a sudden gust came. I don't see why pushing up on the main boom on such a small boat wouldn't do the same thing...

Rich Kokoska

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 01:39:37

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=400-041& variation=& aitem=4& mitem=6

This is a link to wooden boat magazine's store, where the plans for the nutshell pram come from. The drawing shows what I belive to be called a gunter rig. On page 120 and 121 of the latest wooden boat magazine is an add for it and also a sailrite add for sails for the boat. http://www.sailrite.com
give them both a look. I haven't made one but I'd like to try, also take a look ate the Reuel Parker book, "The sharpie Book."
I remember reading an article during the 70's in this mag. about a 24 foot modified sharpie and that has been a dream of mine since. The boat was named the James and Matthew. Maybe after I get a new garage built, a remodle took away what I had my tools are now in cold stroage, I'll make an attempt at one of those. I hear they are wicked fast. Not a nutshell pram though.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 02:20:29

I just took this photo of Parker's book, hope he doesn't get mad because of copy right laws.

The cover is him on his personal 19' Ohio pound net sharpie.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 08:53:59

I've built a 12 dingy (V12 from J. Mertens www.bateau2.com) and equipped it with a lateen sail I had been given. I think it came from an old sun fish or a sun fish look alike. It works quite well - difficult to reef and not that great to windward but fun when I can't get down to the C250.

Edited by - frankr on 01/23/2004 09:00:31

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 12:44:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For my D4 rudder assembly...kick up blade...Photos and plans available<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Leon:

I would love to see those.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 14:46:53

RichardG,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">quote: For my D4 rudder assembly...kick up blade...Photos and plans available.
Leon: I would love to see those.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I responded via e-mail from this website.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2004 : 18:29:55

I had an old sea snark from Kool when i was a kid. It had a lanteen rig. I use to take it out on the San Luis Res. Those of you from CA might know it. Wind comes up to over 30 miles an hour in about a half hour. I would have a pocket full of plastic rings to fix it when the wind would blow the sail off of the mast. Just pull it in put on a new ring and raise the sail. Amazing the stupid things a teen ager will do if his dad lets him. Come to think of it they did have a sizable insurance claim out on me.

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2004 : 19:40:10

Thanks, friends!

Let me torture your minds some more.

Imagine a 18th century lateen rig. The paintings I have seen show only a yard, no boom. A nearly triangular sail. This is different than the sunfish-type lateen.

The yard has a line attached at each end (called braces, I think) to pull the end down to the bow to tack. The yard is hoist by a block at the top of the short mast. It hangs free on the forward side of the mast. It is controlled by the braces and the sheets.

Do I have this right?

This requires two blocks at the bow, with lines led aft to secure whichever end of the yard is required, adding to the complexity of the running rig, and two sheets (or one long sheet looped to the clew.

I guess I will make a model to figure out the details. (I did this when I first got Hey Jude, and it really helped Kirsten and me to understand the sail operation.)

Jim

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2004 : 02:14:09

Jim,
that sounds like the rig shown in the plans for the nutshell pram. take a look at wooden boat or sail rite. Wooden boat has had articles on how to sail them etc. I can try and find some old articles and photocopy them if you want. Let me know and I'll see what I can find. I'm pretty sure it is called a gunter rig.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 00:09:58

Thanks, Leon!

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