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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Honda 8hp vs 9.9hp

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Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/27/2004 : 14:52:12

Hi

I know this topic has been discussed before under general outboard topics but I was wondering whether any of you have experience with either of the new Honda 8 or 9.9 engines. At the moment I have a Honda 5hp which is great for motoring in calm conditions or in not too much wind. However it does struggle both with shaft length (20") and power if conditions get rougher. Hence I'm thinking of an upgrade to the Honda 8 or 9.9. I see they weight and are practically the same, so there are no penalties there in going for the 9.9 but is it worth the little extra money for the 2hp extra the 9.9 provides, or is an 8hp absolutely all you need with a 25" shaft?

Many thanks for your input.

Pie Sees 2 C25 #5686 1987 SR/WK

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 14:58:48

The 8 HP is all you need with extra long shaft. I can't run mine about 1/2 throttle anyways - probably could get by with 6 HP in a high thrust 4 stroke.

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 15:40:18

Someone's gotta be different! For me, I went with the 9.9 Extra Long Shaft. If you look in the archives you will find posting after posting about this topic, and it basically boils down to your comfort level. I had a 9.9 Long Shaft and sold it after a year to get an Extra Long Shaft to make sure my prop stayed in the water. I like seeing the 9.9 on there rather than 8 hp just because that's what makes me feel more comfortable and safe. If it's really so or not I don't know, but it works for me.

You will hear a ton or responses, or read them in the archives, and there are a thousand theories. You have to find yours and go for it!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 15:44:29

I think there's supposed to be a long shaft 4 stroke Nissan appearing on the market soon... you might investigate that option a bit. Supposed to be lighter and less expensive than the Honda. Some folks on this board have experienced trouble with hard starting on the new generation of Honda 4 strokes (8 and 9.9).

Edited by - on

Raskal
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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 17:29:51

Maybe the new thing to look at in this otherwise endless old debate is the issue of high-thrust versions and electronic ignition in the models the manufacturers are offering. Yamaha has a high-thrust model with both that has been spoken of well in recent postings. And the continuing weight penalty for 4-stroke models makes one look seriously at the ever-improving 2-strokes which weigh sometimes 40% less than the comparable 4-stroke.

And just to keep the old debate churning, I say look at anything other than a Honda. I haven't found mine a reliable starter, which matters ever so much when you're in trouble...

Rich Kokoska

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 19:52:53

The problem with the 4-stroke XLS Nissan/Tohatsu is it will not be available until April. The 9.8 comes with electric start and alternator. The best thing is that it only weights 85 lbs. and that is why we are awaiting the arrival for our new boat. We presently have our 1988 8hp Sailmaster attached now and it has no problem moving the boat in smooth to moderate chop water anything above that creates problems since it only has a 20" shaft.
Sorry I forgot what forum I was looking at. The Sailmaster is the engine that was on our 79 C25WK. We had no problems with the 20" shaft since it was on a retractable mount that dropped down very low, 8-10" below the gunnel, measured from the top of the motor.

Edited by - frog0911 on 01/27/2004 20:00:43

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 20:50:27

A better way to waste a couple of boat units would be to send them to me... I will assert that there is absolutely no utility to the extra 1.9 hp of the Honda 9.9--the 8 goes to hull speed at about half throttle, and will turn the water to foam long before it runs out of throttle--meaning more hp and rpms will do absolutely nothing under any circumstances on a C-25. The extra hp comes at the higher revs that you cannot benefit from.

Honda vs. Nissan or anything else... The Honda is BIG and HEAVY, as is the comparable Yamaha, and both companies have been at this for at least 15 years. The xls Nissan will be heavier than the long shaft Nissan, by maybe 10 lbs. That may put it closer to the "big guys" than some people think. Will they work? The pioneers here who try them can let us know.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/27/2004 20:52:09

jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 20:50:40

Catalina factory recommends 9.9 hp outboard.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 20:54:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jheard
 Catalina factory recommends 9.9 hp outboard.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A high-thrust 8 hp 4-stroke is equivalent to at least a 15 hp standard 2-stroke for pushing a displacement hull.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 00:50:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A high-thrust 8 hp 4-stroke is equivalent to at least a 15 hp standard 2-stroke for pushing a displacement hull<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So that would mean that the 4-stroke, high-thrust equivalent of my old 6 hp, 2-stroke Suzuki is -- 3.5 hp?

But seriously, Dave, you've hit on a good point. I think much of it is due to prop size (in contrast to 4 vs. 2 stroke). Not sure about Honda, but the surface area of the prop on my Suzuki is tiny next to that of a newer Yamaha. While I haven't compared numbers, I'm guessing there's significant differences between the surface area of what each company calls its "high-thrust" prop.

Hmmm...maybe I'll upgrade to a new 5 hp Yamaha...but that would mean possibly sacrificing what I consider the number one most important quality any outboard must have -- reliability.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 09:54:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 
So that would mean that the 4-stroke, high-thrust equivalent of my old 6 hp, 2-stroke Suzuki is -- 3.5 hp?

But seriously, Dave, you've hit on a good point. I think much of it is due to prop size (in contrast to 4 vs. 2 stroke). Not sure about Honda, but the surface area of the prop on my Suzuki is tiny next to that of a newer Yamaha. While I haven't compared numbers, I'm guessing there's significant differences between the surface area of what each company calls its "high-thrust" prop.

Hmmm...maybe I'll upgrade to a new 5 hp Yamaha...but that would mean possibly sacrificing what I consider the number one most important quality any outboard must have -- reliability.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Richard: To the extent that your Suzy 6 was probably inadequate for your boat, a 4-stroke 3.5 is probably equally inadequate...

But seriously, the major shortcoming of the smaller 4-strokes is that they're too short. A 25" high-thrust 6 would probably be adequate for our boats, but there is no such thing.

Prop size and low pitch are the keys, along with substantial torque in the 2-3000 rpm range, which is where the 4-stroke really cranks. The low pitch allows the prop to work efficiently when the boat is moving very slowly--unlike the way a standard prop works when a boat is planing. On our boats, a standard pitch prop tends to throw more water outward, like a paddle wheel, wasting torque and thrust.

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bnpirate
1st Mate

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33 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 13:48:18

I have a nissan 4 stoke 5hp which has been very reliable and is enough engine to get me up and down the lake, but I would want an 8 or 9.9 if I was on the coast.
Brian

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 01:49:00

You have hit it on the head, Mr. Pirate. I MIGHT look at an 8 hp high thrust when I need a new engine, but I happy with my 9.9 Yammy....it all depends on what you NEED. Here on the Columbia River, or in the San Juans where currents can run 6 knots in places, or even more....I want all the power I can get. Yes, I usually run at partial throttle, but I can crank the sucker up full tilt if I need and run at MORE than hull speed if I want. I once towed a 28' powerboat into Friday Harbor from 5 miles away. It drove HIM nuts, but I could make about 4 knots with the 9.9 Yammy. Try THAT with a little engine....I want the overkill for where I sail. On a smaller lake, I'd probably go with a 6 hp 2 stroke to save weight. It all depends on how you use it.

I have a 460 c.i. engine in my 3/4 ton Ford, 'cuz I tow a 25' sailboat. A four stroke Toyota would haul the garbage to the recycle center, but I wouldn't try to tow our boats with one...

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR
Vice Commodore

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 08:43:25

There is another problem I have heard about with the latest generation of Honda/Yamaha high thrust motors: The powerhead cover is supposedly larger than on the older engines, and some people have xomplained that they could not tilt the engine to bring the prop out of the water while sailing in light wind. The powerhead cover hits the transom before you can tilt it forward enough to engage the tilt lock. I guess it depends on what kind of mount you have, too. Most Catalina 22's and 25's seem to have the tubular mount (made by Garhauer?) that came with the boats from the factory, but I have also seen other mounts, presumeably installed by the owner, that look like they were intended for small emergency backup outboards on powerboats, not sailboats.

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 20:43:30

Another issue is ancillaries available on 8 vs 9.9: I need electric start and alternator to keep my wife happy. She ain't about to lean over the transom and yank on a rope to try to start the engine. Electric starts and extra long shafts aren't available on all 8hp's.

Edited by - on

pop-eye
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 23:22:24

My 8hp 4stroke super-quiet Evinrude L.S is the CATS MEOW...more than enough power..can tow 10' skiff to catalina island no problem nice ocean motor (wt.77lbs.) Easy to tilt up. pop-eye channel Islands, Califoria

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 00:12:11

Pop-eye, the San Diego / Mission Bay C25/250 fleet is planning a cruise to Catalina Island this summer. We'll be leaving San Diego August 2 and doing lots of different things through August 20. I hope you can join us - meet up in Two Harbors, Emerald Bay or Catalina Harbor.

Kids, wifes, and dogs welcome!

Stay tuned for more info as we get closer to the big date!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 06:27:38

Now, Jim, that's good fleet talk talking! Keep up the good work!

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 06:36:57

As many of you know I am 100% anti-Honda because of the problems I've had starting my 8hp four stroke. It is unreliable, and that makes it, and Honda obs, un-useful. I'm upgrading this spring, Nissan 8 xls, electric start, high thrust prop, 2 stroke.

The reason I've decided to go to two stroke is that I burn 6 gallons of gas a season, exclusively getting in out out of the club's docking system.

Also, that works for the environment I sail in. The environment makes a big difference. When I moved the boat from Huntinton, LI to Nyack New York we reached the Hudson (Nyack is 20 miles north on the Hudson) at maximum ebbing of low tide. My friend who has an Ensign with a 3.5 hp didn't think we'd make any headway, and wanted to hang out in NY Bay. Well an hour or so later we were to the GW Bridge and tide was changing.

The point is 3.5 wouldn't have worked in Hudson, 8 did. On my inland lake a 6 would be more than enough to push the boat, but I want the xls, so . . .!

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 09:44:21

Don, you're lucky to live in a state where you still have a choice.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 10:03:52

Don: Nissan's Web site shows only 15" and 20" shafts on the 8 hp 2-stroke. Is that out of date?

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 12:01:40

I think their brouchure says the 8 comes in an xls. After posting that I got my copy from the web site and noticed the same thing, ugh. If I'm wrong, I guess I'll do the 9.8 which does have an xls, electric start, 2 stroke. So what's a couple more boat units!

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2004 : 12:33:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">pop-eye channel Islands, Califoria<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pop-eye:

Howdy, neighbor (relative term in LA area). I assume from your signature that you keep your boat up in Ventura. If you ever want a shorter drive for boating from Norwalk, give me a shout -- you are welcome to join me out of LA Harbor -- just a hop down the 91 and 710. That is, if you don't mind putt'n around powered by an old 6 hp Suzuki!

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 08:31:02

the only time I had a problem starting my 2003 model Honda 8 hp high thrust, xls, electric start, is when water accumulated in my gas tank, and then the float bowl of the carb. Entirely my fault for not closing the vent every time. The mechanic showed my how to drain the float bowl, really easy.
Other than that, I barely have to touch the starter to get it running, and then you cam barely hear it at idle, and the alternator will put out 6 amps at idle so you can use it as a generator if you want to.
My three complaints are:
1 heavy weight
2 stupid rounded cowl shape so you can't get a good hand hold when mounting it
3 high cost
but once it's mounted, and paid for, I am happy with it
I wonder if Honda's quality control is an issue as we get folks who hate them, or love them. Or is it an issue of old vs. new model?

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 09:58:46

As one of theHonda haters I'll take a moment to answer Frank's comment.

Is it a quality control proble or an age problem, new vs old? I don't know. But,I think Honda tried to live off their reputation with their cars and other type engines. We have Honda lawnmower and Char loves it. Starts easily and reliably. BNut the ob sucks, and the mechanic, Honda trained mechanics can't seem to solve the problem, for me and for others. I thinkl Frank is right there are people who love them, and others (moi included) who hate them.

If I'm right in my supposition, then Honda has a design problem, perhps corrected in the more recent models.

My 2 cents for what its worth, probably 2 cents

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 10:13:59

Hey Don,
Your 2 cents worth is worth twice as much as my one cents worth.

Does this make sense?

What year was your Honda that gave you trouble?

My mechanic also told me that just a little bit of dirt will clog up the small jets used in the low emmisions carbs. Now that makes cents. So I'm going to add a little inline replacable filter onto my fuel line.

Edited by - on

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