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LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/27/2004 : 22:47:59

I'm showing my ignorance here again. I ordered a new mainsail and I'm getting a loose fitted one. On my old bolt footed sail I really didn't goof around with my outhall much as the sail was so limp all it did was crinkle around the battens. Now, however, with my new one I'll be working the outhall more. My ignorance is that I'm not sure how to rig the outhall. I don't think ours was rigged correctly and I just had a ton of line flopping around on top of the aft end of boom. I am trying to run all my lines to the cockpit through rope clutches and I don't know how to run the line from the end of the boom to the mast and then down.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 23:10:08

The answer you seek is in this picture, follow the rope carefully. You will see there is a somewhat short line near the gooseneck that is the line you will run to the clutches.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/27/2004 : 23:20:07

Dave,

My setup is identical to the one illustrated in the CD handbook. If you have a copy of the handbook..take a look.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 15:49:18

Dave,
Have you considered an internal outhaul? You can see an example of one in the Harken catalog appendices.

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 16:41:30

I have not considered an internal one. I'm looking at the picture from Frank and I guess I still don't really get how it should go. It looks like they're is a bridle or something about 2 feet form the end of the boom where 2 lines converge and only 1 runs up the mast. I'm going to look at my CD catalog tonight, although I recall there only being parts to order in it. But, my memory has failed me before. I'm also going to stop by my boat on the way home and take the boom home so I can figure it out.

A guy I know who has a C27 says there's really no reason to run the outhaul all the way to the mast, down to a block and then back on the cabintop. He says to just use a shorter line right at the end of the boom, tying it off at the cleat on the boom. Is that a possibility?

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 17:46:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LeighMarie
 
He says to just use a shorter line right at the end of the boom, tying it off at the cleat on the boom. Is that a possibility?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's probably one of the more common methods used. However, it won't cut it if you want to change foot tension while under sail. That's the beauty of hardware (naturally,) you can set your rigging quickly - no "tying." My internal outhaul line exits the boom about twelve inches aft of the gooseneck, held by a clam cleat, which allows me to adjust tension anytime - quickly.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 17:51:09

Dave & Sharon,

My thoughts on C-25 outhauls.

The first decision I'd suggest you make is how often, and under what circumstances, will you be adjusting your outhaul?

Some folks set it once per season. Those folks don't usually see the need for a fancy outhaul.

The racers (and wannabes) will tweek the outhaul tension as often as the vang, cunningham, traveler, and mainsheet. Which is to say anytime they're bored and their hands are free.

The more important you consider tuning the outhaul, the higher ratio tackle you'll appreciate having. A minimum would be 2:1 for the once a season folks. Mine's an 8:1 internal cascade (including 2:1 wire @ clew car). Any ratio in between is going to be either cheaper and easier to rig and harder to adjust, or more expensive to build and easier to tune. If you plan to make outhaul adjustments while under sail, I'd suggest a minimum ratio of 4:1.

The next question is do you have a sliding or fixed gooseneck? I'm fairly certain the earlier C-25s mostly have sliding goosenecks (my 1979 does). The later ones may be fixed at one height on the mast. If yours is fixed, then leading the outhaul control aft is about as straight forward as any other boom control line.

With a sliding gooseneck, things can get complex, as adjustments to the downhaul tension will affect all other boom controls lead aft. I settled on a pivoting camcleat hanging below the boom about 4' from the gooseneck for the outhaul.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 18:09:14

Dave,

I just attached a double block to the clew of the main and a double w/beckett to the casting at the end of the boom. I installed a small cleat to tie off the line connecting them. Just ease the outhaul before you run down wind or go to a broad reach, cause you won't be able to reach the control line with the boom out over the water.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 20:40:39

I'm looking at the Catalina Direct Handbood on page 4.19 where it shows the external and an internal outhaul kit. Believe me, neither looks like what I have on there now! My current purchase is 1:1 as there's only one little block at the aft end of the boom and then it gets cleated off. (I just went to my boat and drove home with the boom sticking out the window of my car in a driving, blinding snow!)

To go to the internal outhaul, how would one get the line inside the boom? After drilling the boom, are there fittings that would go in the area cut out so the line doesn't get shredded?

I guess I would really like to run it up the boom in order to make adjustments under sail. I raced on another boat and they were using it all the time. I don't intend to race with mine, but I do like to "goof around" with sail shape, etc.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 21:04:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LeighMarie
 
To go to the internal outhaul, how would one get the line inside the boom? After drilling the boom, are there fittings that would go in the area cut out so the line doesn't get shredded?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,
You can insert the rigging inside the boom by removing the cast fittings on both ends. You can keep the line from getting shredded by replacing any sheet metal screws with rivets. My configuration actually uses wire from the clew to a block inside the boom which then converts to rope which exits the bottom of the boom near the goosneck. Really clean, slick set up.
As a picture is worth a thousand words, I will refer you again to the appendix of the Harken catalog. If you can't locate a drawing I'll send one to you.

Steve

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 22:47:15

OJ, I took the end off the aft end of my boom, which must be called the casting?, so I can get in there. But, when it comes off the sail and turns the corner to go inside the boom there has to be some kind of roller or something for it to make that turn. I am going to Strictly Sail show in Chicago this weekend, so I will hunt up a Harken catalog. Here is a picture of the aft end of my boom where I only have a small block and then a cleat. I presume the piece that the block is attached to would be replaced with a roller or something to help the line make the turn, right?

I guess I don't know how to make the picture any larger so you can see it better. I just learned how to get a picture in here, so I guess it's just a step at a time.

Edited by - LeighMarie on 01/29/2004 15:09:36

dlucier
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 08:42:50

Dave,

If you don't want to go internal right now, here's what I would do...

Attach a double block

to the clew of the main sail

Attach a double block w/becket

to the end of the boom.

This arrangement will give you a 4:1 outhaul which you can simply tie off to your existing cleat(Is this cleat for your first reef?). After you use this for awhile, you can then decide if you want to go internal, lead it aft,...etc.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/29/2004 15:33:49

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 10:21:44

I was surprised when I really looked at my outhaul after buying the boat. (Remember my boat is a Mark II so its boom rigging is slightly different than the later boats like yours.) In my opinion the working loads of our boats are not very high so high mechanical advantage purchases only force one to deal with excessively long tails on control lines. I am sorry the picture is not clearer. You do not have the cheek block near the aft port end of the boom that I have on my boom. What you also seem to lack is the single block with becket and shackle that shackles to the clew of the main and connects to the end of the outhaul line. These with the block you do have creates a 3:1 purchase. At the forward end of the boom there is a simple block at the end of the outhaul. The forward block is a 2:1 multiplier which is pulled by the shorter line, (the one you would make long enough to run to the cabin top) it simply makes up to an eye strap on the boom and goes through a clam cleat/fairlead that is mounted with screws on the boom near the goose neck. (The outhaul cleat should be near the gooseneck so that it can be adjusted when your boom is not over the centerline of your boat.) That cleat has been removed in my picture since I will run my line to my cabin top. The resulting 6:1 purchase is far more than needed, if anything it raises the possibility of ripping out the clew. Don's 4:1 is probably a simpler system to rig and plenty of purchase. So, the system I have is what I believe to be the stock system and is a very inexpensive system to implement as well as being a system with minimal installation issues. While I may at some time go to an internal outhaul I will certainly use this system until it provides a compelling reason to abandon it.
By the way, you should have another cheek block on the aft starboard side of the boom that is part of your reefing system.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 01/29/2004 11:07:24

OJ
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 13:02:30

Dave,

The following shows what I was referring to:

From the clew to the block inside the boom, I used stranded SS wire (attached to the clew with a shackle) and rope for the rest of the system.

Harken doesn't make a "wire exit block" to bring the wire inside the boom - but Ronstan does - see product number RF 452 at the following address:

http://www.ronstan.com/catalogue/R042-045.pdf

I also used Ronstans RF 30711 "rope exit block" to bring the rope back outside the boom.

The drawing shows the rope exit block in the aft portion of the boom - I placed mine about a foot behind the gooseneck.

Hope this helps!

Edited by - OJ on 02/14/2004 17:50:11

LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 13:32:35

Of course, everyone's help on this Forum is wonderful, but Don's, Frank's and OJ's in the last 3 posts finally helped it all make sense. Don, I think your system you suggested (which is the one I'm going to use for now) is basically the same as the one in the CD Handbook. I look at it versus what I have now and it will be amazing with the new one. My outhaul line was only just tied onto the clew of the main and I would tug and tug and try to tighten it quickly before I was thrown overboard as the boom was swinging around.

Frank, I appreciate your explanation of the lines on your picture. That helped me understand it much better. Because I don't have the hardware on mine that you have made it more difficult. But, as I get more courageous in adding things onto the boom that may be a way to go.

OJ, the URL's were extremely helpful in understand the exit blocks. I guess I never would have ever guessed such an animal was even made. It also showed me better how to use a website for rigging tips.

Thanks to you all for your help! I feel better prepared now as I head off to Strictly Sail tomorrow. All of this has been driven by my trying to figure out if I need a double or a triple rope clutch on each side of the boat. I had to figure out what I wanted to do with the outhaul which would then dictate what I would do with the lines.

Lastly, I would be very curious to know, Don, how you enlarged the pic of the aft end of my boom? Thanks!

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 13:43:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This arrangement will give you a 4:1 outhaul which you can simply tie off to your existing cleat(Is this cleat for your first reef?). After you use this for awhile, you can then decide if you want to go internal, lead it aft,...etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don - I'm counting at least 5:1 on that setup. If I recall from my physics classes, you can count the line coming from the becket as one...plus, if you take it back through the cheek block that is already there for the factory original setup you should be getting more.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 13:53:52

All this verbiage just on outhauls . . . whodathunkit?

Fred, what does Martha say about keeping sailboat hardware in the living room?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 14:04:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 All this verbiage just on outhauls . . . whodathunkit?

Fred, what does Martha say about keeping sailboat hardware in the living room?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
She made me move it to the shed for christmas

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 14:28:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This arrangement will give you a 4:1 outhaul which you can simply tie off to your existing cleat(Is this cleat for your first reef?). After you use this for awhile, you can then decide if you want to go internal, lead it aft,...etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don - I'm counting at least 5:1 on that setup. If I recall from my physics classes, you can count the line coming from the becket as one...plus, if you take it back through the cheek block that is already there for the factory original setup you should be getting more.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Duane,

Yes, the the becket line is counted in the purchase ratio, but not the tail. Only the lines between the pulleys are counted.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 14:35:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LeighMarie
 Lastly, I would be very curious to know, Don, how you enlarged the pic of the aft end of my boom? Thanks!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

It is rather simple, I changed the third to last digit of the URL(your Shutterfly address) from a "0" to a "6".

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df09b3127cce87d0e09c9c150000001610

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df09b3127cce87d0e09c9c150000001010

Edited by - dlucier on 01/29/2004 14:37:30

LeighMarie
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 15:04:44

Like, I should have known that! Thanks for letting me know! I went back and edited it to see if it would work and it did. I changed the "6" to an "8" just to see what would happen, and it wouldn't post. Gotta be curious, ya know!

Edited by - LeighMarie on 01/29/2004 15:11:14

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 15:33:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LeighMarie
 I changed the "6" to an "8" just to see what would happen, and it wouldn't post. Gotta be curious, ya know!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's how I found out how to change the size.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 15:59:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This arrangement will give you a 4:1 outhaul which you can simply tie off to your existing cleat(Is this cleat for your first reef?). After you use this for awhile, you can then decide if you want to go internal, lead it aft,...etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don - I'm counting at least 5:1 on that setup. If I recall from my physics classes, you can count the line coming from the becket as one...plus, if you take it back through the cheek block that is already there for the factory original setup you should be getting more.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Duane,

Yes, the the becket line is counted in the purchase ratio, but not the tail. Only the lines between the pulleys are counted.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tail should count too...otherwise a single pulle would only yield 1:1

Maybe I am just confused....

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 16:13:46

Duane, you count the number of lines going to the pulleys that support the load. If a single pulley is fixed like on a yardarm it simply changes the direction of the force. If a single puley moves like on my doubler then it is two:one.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 17:02:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Duane, you count the number of lines going to the pulleys that support the load. If a single pulley is fixed like on a yardarm it simply changes the direction of the force. If a single puley moves like on my doubler then it is two:one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Like I said, maybe I am confused....and I was...

So Frank, here is/are my question(s): I have the same configuration. Fixed double on the end, becket and double on the sail. The line starts on the becket goes to the end, back to the block on the sail, to the end of the boom, to the last block on the sail THEN.... goes to a block that is mounted on the boom with a diameter 2 times the size of the blocks on the sail.
1. Does that last block make my purchase 5 to 1 or is it still 4:1 with the direction only being changed? and
2. Does the fact that the last block is bigger in size do anything in this configuration?

dw

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
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Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 17:54:07

Duane,

Count the number of lines coming from where you are producing the load force. If the tail comes from the clew, count the line, if it comes from the block attached to the boom, don't count it. Each line carries the same force, but only those attached to the clew, in this instance, are contributuing to the useful load force.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

PS Sorry, head in orifice, didn't see fhopper reply above saying same thing

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 01/29/2004 17:58:26

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