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Mast step rebuild

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Randall
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123 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2004 : 22:50:52

I need to do a total rebuild of the cabin top area around the mast step. Rain leaks in through all four bolts, and there is no way to stop it. The PO's attempts to stop the leaks by tightening the bolts have caused the hull liner to be sucked up tight against the cabin top, so there is obviously a lot of rot in the core.

My plan is to cut out a rectangle of cabin top from under the mast step and fill the area with West epoxy. How far back in the surrounding area should I go to dig out the rot & refill with epoxy? Does the core have to be totally dry for the epoxy to bond, or can it be damp? Should I use 100% epoxy, or should I put a plywood filler block in to help fill the area?

I saw mention in a recent thread about cutting notches in the front of the compression post so that bolts can be installed to replace the screws the factory used. Good idea?

Randall
"Kite" '79 TR/SK dinette #1459
Central Texas

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 09:27:00

Hi Randall,

"How far back in the surrounding area should I go to dig out the rot & refill?" Until you do not have rotten wood. This could be extensive. So, be prepared for the worst.

"Does the core have to be totally dry for the epoxy to bond?" Well, yes. The epoxy will not bond to water. Additionally, if the core is wet, it will start to rot later. You will want to dry out the whole area thoroughly.

Finally, YES, use through bolts to secure the mast step......especially if you trailer the boat. When you raise or lower the mast, there is considerable UP force on the mast step......especially when the mast is between horizontal and about 60 degrees up. Through bolting the mast step will help prevent an accident - - - not to mention being the "talk of the dock" for months.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 09:38:14

Leon once described how he cut out a "panel" of deck under the mast step and then dug sideways in the rotted core until he reached good wood, after the repair he was able to replace the "panel" under the step and the cosmetic impact was minimized. I would follow that thinking as far as possible were I you.

Bill,
What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of keel stepped vs deck stepped masts?

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 01/30/2004 09:54:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 10:25:02

There's another way to do the job that you might want to consider. First, try to determine how much of the coach roof is rotted. You should be able to get a pretty good idea by tapping around the area with a screwdriver handle. It should sound different where it is rotted. Where there is rot, you can drill 1/4" holes in the coach roof, about 1" apart and extending about halfway through the core. After you drill the holes, cover it to keep out the rain, and let it dry thoroughly. (Having drilled so many holes, it should help it dry more quickly. When it is dry, obtain West epoxy and some epoxy injectors. Epoxy injectors look like hypodermic syringes. Inject epoxy into the holes, and repeat as necessary, until they are filled. The epoxy will fill the spaces left by the rotted wood. The rotted wood fibers will help give the epoxy strength.

You will probably want to restore the surface cosmetically. (I've never done this, but a sailboat dealer/repairer told me it works.) Before you start the project, get some silly putty and take an impression of the non-skid pattern. Let it dry slowly, and it will eventually become hard. After you fill the holes, use the silly putty mold to restore the nonskid pattern. (Just don't tell anyone you repaired your boat with silly putty.

)

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 10:53:28

Here are a few links that might prove helpful.

From the [url="http://www.rotdoctor.com"]Rot Doctor[/url] Website...

[url="http://www.rotdoctor.com/glass/GLcores.html"]Wood-Cored Decks[/url]
[url="http://www.rotdoctor.com/glass/GLdelam.html"]Delamination: Decks and Cabins[/url]
[url="http://www.rotdoctor.com/glass/GLintro.html"]Fibeglass Boat Repairs[/url]

[url="http://www.westsystem.com/index.htm"]West System[/url]

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 10:59:27

Randall,

Here's the [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5218"][link][/url] to that previous thread of yours you may find helpful.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 21:04:02

Thanks, all. I usually have limited luck checking the archives. I do not enjoy the company of computers, so I spend as little time as possible learning to use them, with predictably lame results. I tried "mast step rebuild", and came up with a recent thread that didn't answer my questions.

I pretty much decided that I would submit all my questions (how do you replace portlights, how do you remove, restore, & reinstall a swing keel, etc.) then masquerade as a "newbie" on the site. I've noted that all you old hands are very patient with folks new to the Cat community, and painstakingly write detailed answers to their queries. I figured I could get all my questions answered via one agonizingly long message!

I do have the oversized baseplate under the mast step, which will help conceal the patched section. I like the idea of a backer plate on the inside, and the idea of four through-bolts. I haven't examined the compression post-- is there any trick to removing it?

How ridiculous is the idea of injecting the West epoxy upward from the inside? I hate to drill out the cabin top, since it will be hard to conceal the holes afterward. I could honeycomb the inside of the cabin roof, then cover it all with a light colored hull liner fabric. Dopey idea, right, what with gravity, and all? I've never even batched up any West epoxy, but I'm assuming it has a honey-like consistency. I'm hoping I can inject it upward, then put a masking tape dam over each hole. If I'm going to fill a large, deep area, does the epoxy benefit from a filler, the way gravel makes concrete stronger than a plain sand mix?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:27:19

Randall: I agree with the strategy of drilling a matrix of holes to dry the core, and would do so from above and below--perhaps just under the mast step above and a larger area below. (Don't drill through from top to bottom.) Allow several weeks for drying out--with a heat source, if possible. Then, I'd use a "penetrating epoxy" like Git Rot, which is more like water than honey, to fill in the remains of the rotted wood. From below, drill the holes small enough so that the injector can fit tightly in the hole as you inject. After injecting into each hole, stick a little piece of tape over it.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:36:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
How ridiculous is the idea of injecting the West epoxy upward from the inside?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Plastic resins, either epoxy or polyester, are horribly runny and messy for at least 20 minutes after mixing, even longer in cold weather. To have even a slight chance of sucessfully using epoxy "upside down", it must be thickened with microsphrere powder or similar material to where it isn't runny, then squeezed up into the repair area with a spatula. To repair your deck rot, I think you have to pour in the epoxy from above so that gravity will draw it down into all the nooks and crannies and accomplish the repair as intended. I am not a fiberglass repair "expert" - someone on this forum who IS an expert may have a better answer for you.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 04:16:00

Hi,
I tried to send a note this morning. I had a nice long elocution and my computer kicked off the net in the middle of uploading.

First I don’t mean anything negative against you, but get a PROFESSSIONAL to look at it. To do it right this sounds like a big job. I haven’t used the wood preservative type of epoxy stuff and don’t know their strength. I have used something, I think it was called fiberall. It is sort of a bondo type plastic resin with fiberglass throughout, kind of a chop glass job. It works pretty well.

Depending on your ability there are 4 ways it can work out.

1. Looks like crap and is weak.
2. Looks like crap and is strong.
3. Looks good and is weak.
4. Looks good and is strong.

Be honest with your self. Will the job come out as 1 or 3 stop right now and get someone else to do it. If you think you can do number 2 and will be satisfied – go for it. If you won’t be satisfied job it out. If you can do number 4 get a job and make some bucks.

I have done some fiberglass work, not as much as some here and more than others. I have done fiberglass on past boats, boats of friends, my wife’s car and truck. The car was a major job (front fascia, front right and left fenders, rear fender etc. The work involved fabrication of missing parts as well as fixing major cracks and holes). I would still think twice about doing this job for two reasons. Number 1 would be time. Can you set aside the time needed to do the job? Number 2 can you do a good enough job to make it safe.
I do not want to hear about you having the mast go through your fix, dismasting your boat and sinking it.

If I were to do it I’d go for bullet proof.
Before starting get as much reading material as you can. Read it. WEST systems has a great publication for free, look up their web site. Defenders Industry has great supplies and tech support. Get a friend to help that has done this type of stuff before would be great.

Put on long sleeve shirts and long pants, wear rubber gloves

1. Cut out all the stuff that is screwed up or where the core is wet.
2. Feather in the edges 1:4 at least more if possible. (1/2” feather out 2”).
3. Find the same core material as original. Defenders has everything. I’m a teacher on the West coast with no affiliation to this East coast business.
4. Use a backing wired up to the underneath of the top. Drill holes wire it in; these holes will be filled later.
5. Put the core into this and fiberglass in from the top. It should be fairly strong now. You will have to put more than one layer of glass down. Make it as thick as the original, another layer or two wouldn’t hurt. Read in the directions how to get a smooth finish or cloth textured finish.
6. Now for the hard part. Go inside remove the backing and fiberglass this side. Get the glass wet, roll some on the roof and push the glass into this bed. You may have to keep rolling till it sets a little. If anything sags, while it is still pliable cut out the offending parts with a razor. If you wait too long you will have to grind it off later. Put on another layer.
OH, did I forget to say put a drop cloth over everything. I mean everything the floor underneath the bunks on the side the head, your wife, the kids and the dog. Resin is insidious it gets everywhere you don’t want it to get especially when you are working upside down. Clean up any spills as soon as you can. Have some rubbing alcohol on had for this clean up. It is great at cleaning up and is far more benign than acetone.

7. If you were careful during all of this and got the glass down nice and even with no bubbles etc. there will be a minimum of grinding and sanding.
OH, yes once again. Put on long sleeve shirts, long pants, and wear rubber gloves as well as a reapirator to keep the stuff out of your lungs. Don't forget saftey glasses. Not much worse than fiberglass in your eyes.

This all might be overkill, but in my opinion, which this strictly is, go for the strongest fix you can.

Good luck and keep us appraised.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2004 : 07:02:46

Great write up Matt. I was going to add that Don Casey's book, Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair and The Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual, by Allan H. Vaitses are also excellent references for exactly this type of repair.
Randall, keep us posted as to how it works out.
Dan

Edited by - on

Denny
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 15:05:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bill Holcomb
 Hi Randall,

Finally, YES, use through bolts to secure the mast step......especially if you trailer the boat. When you raise or lower the mast, there is considerable UP force on the mast step......especially when the mast is between horizontal and about 60 degrees up. Through bolting the mast step will help prevent an accident - - - not to mention being the "talk of the dock" for months.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The mast step on my fixer upper was off when I got it. It is a 1983 version but it didn't look like the mounting holes were through holes but rather screwed down with #10 or #12 stainless screws. In my case the original step was bent up and looked like it was torn off by the mast being dropped or something to that end. I cleaned the mounting holes out with a larger drill and filled them with epoxy. I made a new mast step out of 316 stainless and was going to re-drill the mounting holes, an screw it fast with #10 Stainless screws. Is this the original way it was attached as I don't see where any place through bolts were used. I ask this because on a site from my previous boat the discussion went like this. If you do something wrong putting the mast up or down, or rigging breaks,and the mast comes down, is it better that the screws pull out or break or that the top of the cabin is torn up resulting in much more damage. My previous boat was a Rhodes 22. I would be interested in any coments on this before I finish this job when warmer weather gets here.

Denny

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 15:36:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you do something wrong putting the mast up or down, or rigging breaks,and the mast comes down, is it better that the screws pull out or break or that the top of the cabin is torn up resulting in much more damage.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Those are the alternatives. I bought my boat new in 1981, and it has never pulled out the mast step screws when I raised the mast. I considered through-bolting the mast step, but didn't do so for the very reason you suggest. If the mast falls, it will pull the screws out, and it can be repaired with larger screws. If the mast falls and it is through-bolted, it will also do some fiberglass damage. I doubt that anyone is going to have a definitive answer as to which is better. It's like asking, which do you prefer, athlete's foot

or jock itch

? Neither is all that great a choice. You make your choice and you take your chances. Maybe the best thing is to be aware of the possibilities, and be especially careful that you don't drop the mast.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 15:50:17

A couple of thoughts on this - We redid 80 percent of the deck of Tsunami (evelyn 32, not a catalina 25)- so here are a few things I've found out. (I am typing these as they come to mind, so there is no direct train of thought)

First - to answer a question above. you can inject the epoxy through a peice of tape covering the area.

Fillers - There is a fairly good amount of stress on this area of the cabin top - use microballoons or possibly colloidal silica in your repair of this area as your filler.

One method of repair we used was to drill out - honey comb style - large sections of the deck, leaving the bottom section of gel coat in place. We then cored out the rotted area between the holes using all sorts of tools. (screwdrivers, pen knifes etc) Filling these areas was incredibly easier.

Use a combination of Roving, fiberglass mat cloth and the finely woven finish cloth as different layers in your fill. the First two will provide stability, the third gives you a nicer finish on top. Be sure to saturate each layer.

In one large (2x4 ft) area we removed the deck and the core leaving the bottom intact. Then, we cored the edge of this area back another inch. Leaving a top and bottom but no core. We cut balsa core material, which they make prescored with a fiberglass paper attached to one side to fit the hole - jigsaw puzzle style - This allowed the epoxy to seep in between everything. Then we cut roving, mat and mesh to cover the hole - numerous pieces. Mix up West system about 8 ounces at a time, layering everything in place. Allow time for it to set in between layers of glass - Read can for exact times. As you get to the top layers, add the filler -

One last item - do not try to repair the entire core at once....the heat will eat your boat - do it in layers based on set up time on the can...

dw

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