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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/03/2004 : 01:00:12

Anyone know what size mast blocks come on the 250. I measured mine and from the measurements they appear to be Garhauer 30-13SL. They are what I would call very large for a 25 foot boat. Garhauer does not give a rope size for their blocks just specs. on there web site.

Frog and The General

C250, Pretty Penny II, #743
FLEET 25
Coronado 15, M-Cube, #3316

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 19:11:33

I don't know if that is correct, but if you confirm that it is please let us know. I need to order one.

Thanks, Bill

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 19:45:19

These are Garhauer 25 series blocks.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/28/2004 11:00:15

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 21:15:23

That is the problem. The 25 series has a 2" sheave and a 3/16 shackle while the 30 series has a 2 5/8" sheave with 1/4" shackle. I measured the distance across the sheave to be aprox. 3/8". I will take a caliber to it tomorrow. What does the 25 series measure?
I also sent Catalina Kent an EM to ask for the part number of those used on the 2004 C250. Have not had an answer yet.

Edited by - on

Captain B
1st Mate

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USA
88 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 12:43:55

Frank, Your Garhauer 25 series blocks look really awesome on that deck plate. What all do you use them for?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 14:56:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captain B
 Frank, Your Garhauer 25 series blocks look really awesome on that deck plate. What all do you use them for?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Plan:
Main halyard forward center
Boom Vang aft center
Jib halyard port
Outhaul port
Topping lift port
cunningham starboard
reef starboard

I may add another block forward for a spinnaker halyard

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 08:51:37

Anyone decide if these were the 30 or 25 series blocks on the C250.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 09:10:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frankr
 Anyone decide if these were the 30 or 25 series blocks on the C250.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do not know but these Garhauer 25s are larger than the Harkens one would buy, so it is hard to believe the 250s would need anything larger than the already overkill Garhauer 25s.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:07:50

I have sent Catalina EMs,but have yet to receive a reply. So I sent a EM to Garhauer. Hopefully they will give us the answer.
Frank, now that the winter cover is coming off your boat maybe you could measure the sheave diameter and width and let us know.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:24:09

Here's my reading on all this. Catalina buys a lot of stuff from Garhauer, so they get a decent break on already very decent prices. Problem is, I believe, that they don't make anything smaller, or this size is used in large volume on other Catalina's. So I bet Catalina put these blocks on there saying, too big is better than too small, and you can't beat the price.

Me, I did not have any to begin with, so I went with Harken.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 02/23/2004 14:29:25

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:06:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 I have sent Catalina EMs,but have yet to receive a reply. So I sent a EM to Garhauer. Hopefully they will give us the answer.
Frank, now that the winter cover is coming off your boat maybe you could measure the sheave diameter and width and let us know.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Will do, probably tommorrow, I have a political action committee meeting tonight, we need to start giving candidates money soon. I enjoy the rare circumstance where as a Republican I get to help decide where Democrats' money goes. It's a hoot!

edit:
from Garhauer site.
Single Blocks with Front Shackle
25-11 SL - Stainless Steel Lite Blocks length: 4-1/2 width: 2
weight: 6 oz. shackle: 3/16
sheave diameter: 2

$16.94 Add to Cart
Single Blocks with Front Shackle
30-11 SL - Stainless Steel Lite Blocks length: 5-3/8 width: 2-1/2
weight: 9 oz. shackle: 1/4
sheave diameter: 2-5/8

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/23/2004 16:08:40

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 20:04:23

When I measured the ones that came with the boat the sheave size was 2 5/8" and the shackle was 1/4", but the rest of the numbers did not match either block.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 21:39:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 When I measured the ones that came with the boat the sheave size was 2 5/8" and the shackle was 1/4", but the rest of the numbers did not match either block.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Garhauer changes their cheeks at will. If you look at my picture you will see two different styles, identical part numbers, 72 hours apart. Go by the sheave size, and I promise the smaller ones are plenty big!

Edited by - on

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:32:50

Cunningham?????? How do you have that rigged on a C250? I think I may have a grommet in the sail that could accomodate one, but it's definitely not rigged on my boat. Do you find it useful?

Max

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:18:45

Max, I have rigged a cunningham in the past... and used a single block with a becket made to a hook to grab the cunningham grommet and used a double block at the mast base with the line coming back up and cleating at one of the horn cleats on the mast.

I've read and agree that the cunningham is of less value on a fully battened sail. The main purpose of course was to cheat the rules slightly on sail size by avoiding downhauling the boom below the luff limiting black mark during stronger winds. So, the same basic effect is realized by firming the halyard on a c250.

A cunningham can produce some flattening of the lower section of sail especially if rigged for forward movement. To do this the rigging really needs to go to the mast with an eye strap on one side and a cheek block on the other, these positioned at perhaps a 60 degree down angle from the cunningham grommet.

In my opinion, we reef so early when the wind picks up that the cunningham isn't worth the effort to mess with.

Having said all this, I have to admit that I have video from the fastest segment of sailing that I've done on my boat... had it going at 7.3 knots for several hours and guess what... the video shows I was running a cunningham, rigged for downward pull only.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:07:22

Max, the reason Frank has a cunningham is that his boat is a C25 not a C250. Ergo the need for the cunningham. Don't plan on installing one on my new boat. Just don't need anymore lines in the cockpit.

Edited by - frog0911 on 02/24/2004 09:09:27

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2004 : 22:59:08

Arlyn & Frog,

Thanks for the inputs. I was just curious -- according to my sailing manuals, a cunningham can be used to move the ceter of effort (CE) forward and improve stability in windy conditions. I was wondering if this actually worked on a C250, but I fully agree that having more lines and controls is undesireable and reefing probably is a better and easier solution. Arlyn's experience is interesting, though -- and pretty phenomenal speed! Must have waxed the bottom before that run!

What got me interested in this was an experience on a blustery day. The outhaul came loose and allowed the main to loosen up. Surprisingly, the boat was sailing extremely well -- contrary to the theory that you should flatten the main in windy conditions. I can only guess that by easing the mainsheet and having the jib rolled in halfway, the sail set was somehow producing some very good lift. I've been wondering if the net effect was the same as the loose footed main? Anyway, I enjoyed the ride, and was cruising along at about 5.5 knots and feeling very stable and in control. I got home and read all my sailing references, and everything I read contradicted what I had just experienced. And, the cunningham was mentioned as something you could use for the "proper" effects.

I guess you never know.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 00:32:05

After waiting for answers from Catalina and Garhauer, none of which came, Oscar and I decided that the blocks they sent with the boat were overkill. So I took Frank's advice an ordered four series 25 blocks so I could get that project finished.
After making that decision we took PennyII out for me to get a sailing lesson on how far we could go before we ran out of rudder. To say the least, I was worried when she rolled up and on at least one occasion, we agreed, the gunnel was in the water. We had a great time, but were about to freeze when we docked. Temperature was 50 with winds from the NNW @ 15 G20 according to the NOAA bouy data for that day. It probably would have taken me another month to finally feel secure enough to sail her like Penny. Thanks to Oscar I don't have those same misgivings and feel a lot more comfortable with Penny II's handling and stability.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 08:39:41

Max, one more comment to add to the above. Yes, the cunningham especially rigged from the mast has the potential to flatten the lower section of the main. The outhaul and halyard can do almost the same thing except they require much more effort while under load.

As to the go fast condition I experienced... The conditions were ideal and I really didn't intend to credit the speed to the cunningham. For sailboats like the c25/250 to exceed their hull speed limitations, they have to climb up on the bow wave. It takes a lot of power combined with lower drag to set those conditions. Its my belief that a sailboat can't get more than hull speed while motoring because while power can be added in greater amounts, the motor foot and sidewash from the prop also produces a lot of drag.

A sail with deep draft, has a lot of drag so exceeding the hull speed is probably only going to be done with the sails hardened well so that the wind can blow over them fast. I've not been able to repeat that speed again. It may be because of increased cruising weight (30 lbs heavier outboard) on the boat, not experiencing those ideal conditions again or that my sails have now stretched too much and have too much drag, or a combination of the three.

I don't think its because I'm not running a cunningham.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 08:49:16

Jerry,

Sounds like you and Oscar were airing it out a bit... and that you proved the rudder on the wing keel version has plenty of grip. I'm betting Oscar came away with some perspective comparisons between the long and short versions of the 3rd generation rudder which we might get a report on.

Yep, temperatures of 50 degrees can be airish... that was my cutoff temp when sailing my Hobie Cat years ago. Below 50... I didn't go. Course I wore a wet suit... and it was comfortable down to that temperature, but funny thing about a wet suit, they go from keeping enough warmth to feeling comfortable to feeling miserable with seemingly only a narrow margin between.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 09:07:22

We did talk about the two rudders and his comments were basically to the effect that with the short rudder we would have round up very quickily with it installed in the conditions of that day. I'm sure when he finally gets his feet back on the ground for awhile he will let us know his total evaluation.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 09:53:16

And here he is.....back on the ground.

I guess I made some good decisions over the years, when a day at the office consists of navigating an air machine from NY to Jacksonville, and then having a forum friend pick you up to go for a sail. And what a sail it was.

The very pretty water Penny lives on was deserted except for us. Was it 50 degrees? Not with the wind chill, felt more like 35. Luckily the water was flat, so we kept dry. Just for grins the main was full, and the 135 was rolled all the way out. Indeed, at one point the hull to deck joint was in the water..

As the General correctly stated, stuff would not have staid on the table, in fact one of the galley drawers was hanging out, only to be kept in by its fingernails. (The general was glad she did not come...)

However, as overpowered as she was, with all that heel, the rudder was about half over, we released the main to where there was about a 60% "farmers reef", and, she did not round up. Very much in control. In my opinion our point is more than proven. 

Needless to say, were we on a cruise, a reef in the main and a turn or two on the jib would have put the boat well inside the envelope, and it would have been much less exciting. An autopilot would handle that no problem, and the speed would have improved.

Still, it was good to put here through her paces, just to see what she would do. As Frog said, he felt better about the boat after all this, so we turned around and ran down wind back to the dock.
A nice dinner to top it off, and I was in my bunk on time to get a good nights sleep before the 0445 wake up!!!! Thanks Frog.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 11:13:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mday
 

What got me interested in this was an experience on a blustery day. The outhaul came loose and allowed the main to loosen up. Surprisingly, the boat was sailing extremely well -- contrary to the theory that you should flatten the main in windy conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A trick that seems to seldom be talked about is twisting out the top of a sail in very high wind. Here in Kansas we play in high wind a lot. When a very flat sail is still overpowered and pinching is not enough to make the boat controllable you can haul the traveler to windward, let go the boom vang and let go the main a little and the boom will rise. This lets the top of the sail twist off and spill air while you still drive from down low in the sail, (with less heeling). I suspect your out-haul letting go accomplished much the same effect.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2004 : 21:34:03

Oscar, it was my pleasure and the invite is always open. If you get a layover in JAX you have my number and remember it is only 530 feet to the water. Thanks again for the lesson.
Winds today were 25-G30 from the NE, white capping heavily, so my son and I decided not to go. Winds tommorrow suppose to be better so we will go after church. He has not sailed in Penny II yet so he will have a jolt when she rolls up. There is really no way to explain the feeling when she does, you just have to experience it.

Just think this all started with MAST BLOCKS.

Edited by - frog0911 on 02/28/2004 21:35:39

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