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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Rules is rules, ya know!

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/13/2004 : 10:40:30

If you guys want to brush up on the racing rules before you go racing, there is an excellent site that has animated explanations of the rules. There are one hundred animations, and, if you would go through them all in one sitting, it would take awhile, so I log onto the site and just do them ten-at-a-time.

The site is set up so that you can view the animation without reading the full text of the rule, but, if you want to read the rule, you can just click on it, and the full text will appear.

It makes the rules interesting and understandable.

The site can be found at: http://www.isafrules.com/aaa.swf

When you get to the site, click on: The Animated Casebook 2001-2004

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 11:13:13

Steve,

That is an excellent site and thanks for posting it.

Coincidently, while at West Marine yesterday to order a part, I also picked up my first book on racing because, due to a work schedule change, I may get into the sport this year. This site will help me visualize those things that my brain can't extrapolate from a book.

Thanks.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 15:28:38

Nice job steve, thanks.

I too would like to play at racing, but don't know anything about it. People say the best way to learn is to go out and do it, but I want to know a little about it first, as I have a low tolerance for whiney people, and the first racer who starts whining because I broke a rule..........

Maybe I should just stick to cruising

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 16:36:11

Aw shucks Frank! Come on out and play with us - we'll get Gary B. to institute a "no whining" rule...

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 18:51:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a low tolerance for whiney people, and the first racer who starts whining because I broke a rule..........<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's one of the most common reasons why people are turned off by racing. By far, most racers don't race aggressively or whine about rules. Don't let the exception discourage you from racing. The smart thing to do is to never, ever get involved in a rules dispute, no matter how well you think you know the rules, or how good you are at racing. Because of the nature of racing, and the fact that the only witnesses to an incident are usually "interested" witnesses, it is easy to lose a protest, even if you were in the right. Because the outcome of such disputes is so unpredictable, that's why it's smart to stay out of disputes. Just sail the course and yield to other boats unless it is perfectly clear that you have the right-of-way.

It also helps avoid problems if the skippers hail each other, to let them know their intentions. (Sometimes novices hear skippers yell at each other, and think they are exchanging unpleasantries, but most hailing is done for safety's sake.) For example, if you are beating to windward, and you are the leeward boat, and you want to luff the windward boat, say "luffing!" or "coming up!" If you are on starboard tack, and a port tack boat is about to cross your path, yell "starboard!" By hailing him, you are letting him know that you are there (in case he doesn't see you) and you are letting him know that you are claiming right-of-way. When you are approaching a mark, tell other nearby skippers what you intend to do, so nothing comes as a surprise to anyone.

At my lake, we used to have two racing fleets; an "A" fleet and a "B" fleet. The "A" fleet was for experienced racers, and the "B" fleet was for novices. "A" Fleet racers started races 5 minutes before "B" Fleet racers. After a "B" Fleet racer won the "B" Fleet championship, he had to race in the "A" Fleet. That way, the novices didn't have to deal with the more self-assured racers. If your club has enough racers to make two fleets viable, it's a good way to encourage novices to get into racing.

Frank, if you volunteer to crew for a racer a couple of times, you'll learn enough to be able to start racing your own boat. If you have never raced before, reading about racing is the hard way to learn. After you have been on a race course, whatever you read about racing will start to make sense.

As Derek says, Frank, "Come on out and play with us!" We old-time racers like nothing better than to have a little "fresh meat" out on the racecourse!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 19:24:46

One of my favorite hails is "Hold your course." It is great fun to watch the eyes of the novice crew member when two skippers of reasonable skill are crossing. The hold your course is of course usually when you will cross ahead on port but the starboard boat is not quite as sure of your boat speed as you are.

Spring please come soon.

Edited by - on

seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 20:42:24

Anyone that wants to see a comedy where the common man beats the stuffed shirt in a sailing match should watch the movie 'Summer Rental' with John Candy (RIP). Oldie but goodie, tho the sailing doesn't start till about halfway through.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 07:02:59

Steve, Thanks for posting this site for us. And you are right it is best to avoid the rules confrontation because you are likely to loss in the protest room, while you "win" on the race course. You loss because you don't follow protest protocol, or for some other technicality while you might have been right.

That said it is is important to know the rules when you get out on the race course. One to protect yourself from the obnoxious skipper who hails port to the novice racer on port. I know of a situation where this happened, and the clear ahead novice ducked under the stern of the port boat. Also, as a skipper we have an obligation to avoid a collision, and can loss protests because we don't, or because we fail to give sufficient time for the other boat to avoid us in a proper and seamanslike way.

Knowing important, avoidance good.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 08:52:26

Don mentions obnoxious skippers taking advantage of novice racers

Makes me want to participate

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 09:08:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That said it is important to know the rules when you get out on the race course. One to protect yourself from the obnoxious skipper who hails port to the novice racer on port. I know of a situation where this happened, and the clear ahead novice ducked under the stern of the port boat. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen that happen, too, but one of the animations deals with just that. It's a violation of the "fair sailing" requirement of the racing rules.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 10:28:47

I suspected so, only thing is the newbie needs to know the rules so that he can file, a protest.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 11:42:34

Frank: The reason that more of us don't race is just that INTIMIDATION factor, which I so hope to take care of in the Nationals. I know full well that a MAJORITY of guys participating are NOT experienced racers.....so who cares?

And Steve is SO right, some blankety-blank who tries to screw a novice by yelling Starboard when he is on port is HIMSELF guilty, not only of being unethical, but of breaking the Fair Sailing rule, and is himself subject to a 720 turn, or disqualification.

Since the complete rules can be intimidating, and since some of them are for very rare situations, I have used this simplified version with my fleet. It is a good place to start and will keep you out of any conflicts about 95% of the time! I'll post it below.

Also, Steve, UK sailmakers publishes an online rules quiz with explanations of rules....sometimes the "tricky"-rare ones, but good never-the-less.

Frank, come out a CREW for somebody this summer, if you can't or don't want to bring your boat. After this regatta, you will be much more likely to enter the next one. We expect to TEACH folks a lot this summer. And I, personally, want to LEARN from those more experienced than I.

Start here to understand all those complicated rules:

10 Commandments of racing rules.....

1. AVOID COLLISIONS! Racing rules are defensive to prevent collisions; not racing "tactics"
2. PORT TACK (boom on starboard side/wind coming over port side) KEEPS CLEAR OF STARBOARD TACKERS (boom on port/wind coming over starboard side)
3. WINDWARD KEEPS CLEAR OF LEEWARD
4. BOAT TACKING OR JIBING KEEPS CLEAR OF ONE THAT IS NOT
5. BOAT ASTERN KEEPS CLEAR OF ONE AHEAD
6. IF YOU GAIN RIGHT OF WAY, OR CHANGE COURSE, GIVE OTHER BOAT TIME TO KEEP CLEAR
7. THE INSIDE BOAT(S) AT TWO BOAT LENGTHS FROM THE MARK IS/ARE ENTITLED TO ROOM TO ROUND
8. A BOAT THAT IS BACKING UP OR NOT RACING KEEPS CLEAR
9. IF YOU HAVE VIOLATED A RULE, TAKE A PENALTY (usually 720 degree turns)
10. IT IS BETTER TO GIVE WAY THAN TO SPEND HOURS IN A PENALTY ROOM

Gary's advice (learned by experience)
Especially when you are not familiar with other racers on the course in a race with a number of relative novices: TALK to other boats and tell them what you are going to do rather than SURPRISE them with a big MISTAkE! Hail them, i.e. use your turn-signals!

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

PS: Would it be helpful to publish these simplified rules as a sticky, or just distribute them at skippers' meetings before the regatta???

Edited by - Gary B. on 02/14/2004 11:45:07

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 14:01:59

Guys - a violation of the "Fair Sailing" rule leads to a DSQND. That's a disqualification non-discardable (which means that if you are allowed throwouts in this regatta - you can't throw this one out! You can't absolve yourself with penalty turns.
Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 21:27:41

thanks for the clarification, Derek. I KNEW you couldn't do it...i.e. "lie to a rookie, etc.", but did not know it was this serious. I am glad; it should be....

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:15:51

Thanks Derek and Gary,
I can't imagine that a C25 skipper would ever try to intimidate a novice. What I have seen in my limited exposure to racing (Yes, I have crewed a couple of times) are the folks with the racing machines with mylar/kevlar sails acting like the spoiled little rich kids (yuppie scum?) that they probably are/were. Not the folks like us with cruisers.
My most enjoyable race was crewing on a Catalina 22. You know, the kind of boat that most of us just sold so we could get out 25.
I just sent in my $550 check for my yearly membership/slip rental for my sailing club here in Knoxville. In the space where they ask what programs we want I wrote that I would want a novice racing class. From what I understand there is interest in taking a class like this from the members, but no interest from the racers in teaching it, but yet they want more participation, and the racers demand that us non racers work the races for them, and demand an inordinate amount of rescources (money) from the club.
Go Figure.
I must schedule my vacation time in October for the next year. So unless I know in early October when an event takes place in the next year, I'm SOL as far as getting to go.
I did look at a racing book, the Rules of Racing, or something like that. The very first chapter was how to file a protest. (that's the first thing one must learn about racing?) I put the book back on the shelf, and figured that I hear enough whining at work, why go looking for it in my recreational time.
By the way, my C22 friend who I crewed for is going to meet me in the Keys next week for 6 days. I'm sure I'll learn more about sail trim from him.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:18:40

Frank, the novice sailing class is crewing. Become valuable crew and after a year or two you will be very knowledgeable.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 12:04:57

Frank - I teach 3 short seminars each year at our Yacht Club - Beginning Sailing, Beginning Racing and Race Management. It has increased the interest in racing amongst our members. We also run a Novice Regatta the afternoon of the Beginning Racing seminar - we do 2 or 3 practice starts and then 2 races. Each novice takes out an experienced racer as adviser &/or crew.
I highly recommend that you "persuade" one (or more) of your racers to take time to do the same.
Derek

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 13:22:19

Derek,
Where do you teach these seminars. That's exactly what I need.

Thanks

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 19:12:15

Frank - at our clubhouse on Canyon Lake...
Maybe you can persuade Gary B. to run something similar just before the nationals.

Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 00:21:43

Derek, et. al: We HAVE scheduled a skipper's meeting the morning racing begins that has on it "rules review". We will look at your materials, Derek, that you sent. Maybe we can incorporate your seminar information, depending upon how much time it takes.....

Maybe YOU could lead a workshop at Nationals? I don't have any idea how much time there might be. We have a fleet meeting scheduled for March 6 to further discuss Nationals, and we expect our chief race officer to attend. We will see how much time we can devote to this, but I think it's a GREAT idea.......I seriously doubt that we CAN or SHOULD review every stinking rule that exists, but the basics (i.e. the 10 commandments +) would be really worth doing. The emphasis, in my mind, is teaching people, and learning from those who know more....both about rules / procedures and sailing performance / tactics.

Gary B.
Commodore of Vice

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 10:55:45

Gary B. - I'd be glad to do anything to help! I could compress the seminar into an hour max, cover the "10 commandments" and still have time to teach basic racing. (Remember I'm the original exponent of the K.I.S.S. principle!

)
Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 11:58:55

Derek, I will pencil you in, but I want to run it by the fleet and the PRO, so that no one's toes get stepped on! I think it's a great idea. I am sure the PRO will want to talk about commercial traffic and specific things about racing on the river, but that will be beyond what you do......This sounds great. I will bring it up at the March 6 meeting and let you know when it's "official"- k?

Gary Bruner
Commodore of Vice

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 13:33:10

As an interested bystander, I think this idea of Racing Rules Seminar is great! I think I know the rules pretty well, but I'm sure this will be a good learning experience for me as well as the others that are at Nationals.

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