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Largest Possible genny?

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weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/16/2004 : 14:55:17

Hello,

Anticipating the extreme light air days on the lake this summer, I'm investigating the largest possible genny I could fit on my '86 tall rig.
I'm considering a 180 1.75 ounce, with hanks. I'm looking for maximum close reaching performance in 1 to 5 knots. My track runs all the way to the stern of the boat and I don't have a problem with walking the sail around in a tack.

I was thinking that if I had a 180 made, the clew would have to be closer to the deck, so that I enough track aft to depower the sail. The other alternative would be to have a 170, with a higher clew, so that I could get the sail around the mast easier and still have track to depower.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro, CA
'86 c25 TR SK

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
www.lakedonpedrosailingclub.org
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 15:16:36

It has been years since I donated my sailing library to the local boat house. If I still had it I would pull Ross's Sail Power and try to find a discussion on the leech of a head sail exstending past the leech of a main. To Me a headsail is for developing a slot that powers the main, I would think that the further the leech of a headsail extends aft the more difficult it would be to maintain a productive slot; one that does not backwind the main and increases the velocity of air on the leeward side of the main. Years ago I had a 170 and do not remember flying it much. I feel the ability to point is a function of sail trim and slot control. In light air I would rather use a gennaker/blooper reaching and running and a 135 to point.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 15:56:28

I tend to agree with Frank. Even though Slot considerations have changed over the past 10 years (arbitrary timeframe). Anything coming back greater than the first 1/2 the main really can hinder performance, not improve it. Especially since our boat and rig weren't designed for such a large sail.

I would also contend that if something were to kick up out of nowhere, you'd have an extremely difficult time getting that sail down.

I do recall a guy with a 170 being on the web a few years back, I cant remember who it was though.

Instead of trying to deal with that much cloth, the weight accompanying it and the tacking of it think about some other options.

Increasing the roach on your main - The main is really were the drive is. Maybe a 155% single panel made of lightweight carbon fiber mold or mylar laminate? You'll probably get just as much.

If its that light, we just put up the Iron Genoa.

dw

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 21:22:08

What you want is a "reacher". This is an ultra light genoa, similar to an assymetric (non pole) spinnaker. Also known as a drifter. I think they are about 150%.

My spinnaker is 0.5 oz. You would not believe how light this fabric is. Any whisper of a wind can fill it.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 21:30:11

I agree that a reacher is what you should be looking for, and it should be no larger than 150% since the trick to achieving maximum boat speed and pointing ability in light air is to maintain a proper slot and proper sail shape. I don't think you'll be able to achieve either with a 180.

Edited by - on

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 22:21:52

As usual, I've received an excellent variety of good information. I didn't know of the "slot" theory and trust your opinions on this.

I have and enjoy a Pineapple Asymetrical Tri-radial chute for off the wind. I've forgotten the difference between a Genoker/blooper/drifter/reacher. Some of these are probably the same things. How are these different than the chute I'm using now? Are any of these better closer to the wind? I'm not sure yet, but it seems that when I'm closer to the wind than a beam reach, with the asy chute, I have too much sideways motion. Poor VMG ??

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 03:05:58

For light air, I have the usual Dacron 150% genoa, and a 165% nylon drifter (maybe 3/4-oz?) with only a few hanks. The drifter points much higher than I expected it would, but not as high as the genoa.

I agree with the others who have said that you're unlikely to be able to point real high with anything larger and softer than a 150% Dacron cloth genoa. If an asymmetrical or drifter does start to accelerate the boat hard on the wind, the apparent wind is going to go so far forward so fast, that you might as well have started out on a broader, and faster, point of sail to begin with. I think by the time a really huge light air headsail is sheeted tight, pointing high, and drawing well, the only way to open up the slot enough to not bubble the main will involve flattening out the draft, and moving the traveler so far up that the leech will be badly stalled. It seems to me the power sacrificed from the main will be greater than that gained by the larger than 150% headsail. Off the wind a bit, the drifter comes into its own, and really helps a lot in the summer doldrums.

The 165 is a lot of cloth to get past the mast and rigging when coming about, but in light air it seems to slide over OK without assistance if I'm not in a hurry and tack wide (maybe 120*) until it all gets across.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 06:34:45

I have a friend at the club who has 170, and pays handicap penalty when we race, and wins almost all the time.

My inclination is to have a 150-155, and then use a Assym off wind. But that's me.

Edited by - on

cvwall
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 12:08:16

In order to ease the sail across, try rigging a small tricing line on the sail. Run a small-diameter line from the clew of the genoa or drifter to a small bullet block on the forestay, riding just above the hank closest to where the mitre line would be (if our sails were cut that way), down to another at the tack, and back to the cockpit. When tacking, just pull on the line enough so the sail is pulled forward of the shrouds and mast, and release when the sail has passed across the deck. It's simple and easy.

Edited by - on

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2004 : 14:03:37

Thanks cvwall for the tacking tip. I think I may be leaning towards a 1.75 ounce 160 nylon sail for real light winds. I can't afford a laminate sail, but could come up with 500 dollars or so, for a cheap nylon.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2004 : 16:06:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by weluvlife
 but could come up with 500 dollars or so, for a cheap nylon.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

People who don't sail would find that an oxymoron.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.