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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing Keel Trouble: keel pin bracket

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Herb Clark
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/18/2004 : 17:42:43

The starboard bracket that holds the keel pin is hanging loose from the bottom of the hull. I can see no bolts and we are taking on some water. Can anyone give me suggestions? Also, I would like a boat yard in the S.F. Bay Area to do the work. Any recommendations?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2004 : 18:51:49

Not wanting to be overly dramatic, but holycrap! Are you on your trailer I hope? There are exstensive discussions in the searchable archives about our swing keels, you need to determine what damage has been done and you may consider a wing keel retro fit, (search that also). Others have discovered that the repairs to a swing keel trunk can cost as much as the conversion. Remember the old keel itself is worth something on ebay! I am so sorry to hear your boat is broken, but that is what it is, do not put it back in the water without fixing it first!!!!! If, no, when that keel falls it could pull part of your stairs through the bottom of the hull!

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2004 : 21:15:15

I think you had better get the boat out of the water as quickly as possible. The problem sounds serious and could really be catastrophic if the keel decides to really let go. I can't give you a recommendation for SF area yard to do the work, but that can be determined after the boat is out.

A friend with a swing keel on another brand of boat had the keel let go, and came to the club only to see the top two feet of his mast.

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 01:17:49

Herb,
How about a little more information. The boat must be out of the water ffor you to see that the bracket is hanging loose. If so, why is it taking on water? If the boat is on the trailer and the bolts that hold the bracket have simply backed out and the threaded inserts are still good, it should be a reasonably easy job to reattach the bracket with new bolts. Otherwise the job is more complex and may require glassing in new inserts. Depending on your situation, hopefully you don't have a serious repair on your hands. I agree with the other posts, if the boat is in the water, carefully get it out ASAP. On the trailer, make sure the front of the keel is supported other than through the remaining bracket. Good Luck.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 01:29:51

Herb,
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The starboard bracket that holds the keel pin is hanging loose from the bottom of the hull. I can see no bolts and we are taking on some water. Can anyone give me suggestions?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes. Get the boat out of the water immediately. If it's not possible to haul out with the swing keel in its present position, first raise the keel fully, and then lower it about six turns of the winch crank. Tow or motor the boat to the nearest available haulout facility. Do not attempt to sail the boat. If you have to raise the keel back up those last six crank turns, only do so when there is some support under the forward end of the keel, such as a travel lift strap, or the boat is part way onto the trailer.

Once the boat is out of the water and supported safely, either remove the swing keel, or at least carefully lower the forward end of the keel 2" to 4". keep in mind that a Catalina 25 swing keel weighs about 1,500 pounds. Be very careful handling it. If your boat is on a trailer, it might be possible to lower the front of the keel the needed few inches using jacks and timbers. If you are not experienced and confident manuevering objects this heavy, get professional help from some one who is experienced at it.

Once the keel pivot bearing parts are out of the way, then you can inspect all four bolt holes in the hull. They should be 3/8-NC machine thread into stainless steel inserts, maybe 1" to 1-1/2" deep. If the threads appear OK, use stronger light and a magnifying glass to be sure. If the threads still look undamaged, get another opinion from someone like a professional aircraft mechanic. If there is any visible damage to the threads, I don't suggest continuing to use them.

If the threads are damaged, or the bolts broken off, there is a relatively straight forward and inexpensive repair procedure. Contact the Catalina Yachts factory for the parts kit and detailed printed instructions. Do not attempt to repair damaged threads without consulting the factory and following the written factory procedure.

If you need clarification of anything any of us have written, please ask. Let us know what you find, and we'll be happy to provide you with more detailed advice.

Good luck.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Herb Clark
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 11:19:01

Dear Leon et.al.
Thanks for the input. Boat is on the trailer, keel is supported below and also laterally by the retrofitted keel guides. There is about 1.5 inches of play between the lateral keel guides. My plan is to build some wooden wedges to keep the keel in the upright position. Then we can remove the keel from the boat and put the boat on stands and do a proper inspection of the hull and keel trunk. Water is getting in somewhere as I had about 1 inch of water over the cabin sole. This was the first tip that I had a serious problem! I will contact the factory for the repair bulletin and keep everyone posted on the outcome of the repair. Our plan is to trailer the boat to Valdez this summer and sail Price William Sound. Has any Forum member done this before? I would like to know how their experience went.

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 12:13:44

Hi Herb,

Since no one has mentioned this yet, I thought you might want to see a pretty ingenious method for slowly lowering the swing keel. If your bolts aren't broken off and the threads are still good, this should work:

BTW, when I first got my boat I replaced the four mounting bolts that secure the swing keel pivot assembly. One of the four bolts was missing, so I have to assume that they can work their way out over time ... I'm keeping my fingers crossed that yours also just worked their way out instead of breaking off.

Good luck with the fix ... let us know if you've got any other questions, and please keep us posted on your progress.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 13:29:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Herb Clark
 ...Water is getting in somewhere as I had about 1 inch of water over the cabin sole. This was the first tip that I had a serious problem!...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Herb,

Since you stated you are taking on water, be sure to thoroughly inspect the keel trunk for any signs of damage like the kind shown in this photo from a Tech Tip article titled [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.html"]Dragon Tail - Swing Keel Trunk Fix[/url] by Ken Cave.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2004 : 13:31:12

Thank you Herb, I hope everything works out ok

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Herb Clark
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 00:46:51

Thanks Buzz, Don and Scott for the photos, ideas, and encouragement! Boat goes to Bay Ship and Yacht on SF Bay on Monday. It now appears that the starboard bolt heads are gone, but the bolts are still there. Bay Ship rebored the keel hole and put in a bronze bushing and new stainless pin a number of years ago. Could I be getting some electrolysis here? I will keep the forum posted on the progress and costs, etc. when I return on March 3rd. Til then, cheers and again, many thanks.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 09:46:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Herb Clark
 Thanks Buzz, Don and Scott for the photos, ideas, and encouragement! Boat goes to Bay Ship and Yacht on SF Bay on Monday. It now appears that the starboard bolt heads are gone, but the bolts are still there. Bay Ship rebored the keel hole and put in a bronze bushing and new stainless pin a number of years ago. Could I be getting some electrolysis here? I will keep the forum posted on the progress and costs, etc. when I return on March 3rd. Til then, cheers and again, many thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Was it Quasimodo that said "WARRANTY WARRANTY"?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 10:07:16

"...Could I be getting some electrolysis here...?" Possible... there may have been some 'bad' stainless involved. I've had some 'hardware store stainless' bolts twist off way below their torque rating, start 'rusting' immediately, sieze easily etc.

Good quality control and careful alloying are very important for stainless steel, I've become 'picky' about where I buy stainless hardware. Critical bolts should also be stamped or certified '316'.

Careful examination of the remnants of the bolts (and the surviving bolts) will probably tell the story. Could be other things too... a mis-alignment between the bolt head and the bracket face can cause stress loading fractures, they could have been over-torqued, under torqued (allowing stress from the shifting of the bracket) etc.

It's nice to know that one side of the pivot will hold the keel. (for awhile anyway)

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Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 10:21:27

Yes I would look at the bolts when they get them out, I think the old joke with stainless was to torque the bolts till they twist off then back off a half turn.

Really makes me wonder, hmmmmm just the heads are gone?

You should be able to tell if the top of the bolt looks like it was twisted or not.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 12:03:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Herb Clark
 It now appears that the starboard bolt heads are gone, but the bolts are still there. Bay Ship rebored the keel hole and put in a bronze bushing and new stainless pin a number of years ago. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bronze bushing and Stainless pin!!!

LEON...

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Herb Clark
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 13:11:58

Hellow fellow sailors and swing keel advisors! Hotel Charlie is back in the water and dry as a bone! Bay Ship did a fine job and the bill came to 786 bucks. The problem with the keel bracket apppears to have started with one bolt on the starboard bracket coming out. The head on the 2nd bolt broke off and allowed the bracket to come lose from the hull. Once the boat was on the stands, they removed the broken bolt with an easy out, chased all the treads and replaced all four bolts using lock tite to discourage the new bolts from vibrating out. There was no sign of electrolysis, the stainless pin looked great and the bronze bushing was fine. So, where was the water coming from? The shackle screw holding the spectra line to the keel had worn a small hole in the edge of the keel trunk and the hull. An easy repair. We replaced the shackel with a thimble and all seems well. I may now have money for a dodger so we can stay dry on our tiip to Alaska. I will need to see if the dodger allows for the pop top feature to remain. If not, I will opt for the pop top and use a tarp on pvc pipe as we have for many years. Thanks to all who gave their advice and support. Cheers!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 14:07:18

Herb,

Glad to hear that Hotel Charlie (nice boat name

BTW) is back in the water. It appears that the taking on of water was actually a good thing because it alerted you to some repairs that you may have not noticed until it was too late.

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