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blisters - osmosis?

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nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2004 : 10:45:35

Hi, last summer we bought a Catalina 250, here in Holland (sorry for my poor English),build in 1996. We had a great summer with this boat and no serious problems. But last weekend, we discoverd a lot (hundreds) tiny blisters (maybe 1/2 to 1 centimeter; how many inchces is that?). Our first reaction was osmotic, but the strange thing is that we only discoverd these blisters above the waterline, e.g. at the back of the boat, nearby the pole and beside the windows. We can not find any information on the (Dutch) internet, so we hope that any of you can help us? What kind of blisters can these be? Could it be a type of osmosis? And if yes, what to do with it?
Thanks for reactions,
Nynke Bakker

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 10:59:44

Hello Nynke,

I've been waiting for a Dutch person to show up on this forum for a long time. I don't believe there are any rules on this forum governing language....so:

Ik ben in Nederland geboren, maar woon al sinds 1982 hier, nu met vrouw en twee kinderen. Ik heb mijn hele jeugd gezeild op Loosdrecht en het IJsselmeer en de Waddenzee. Als je zin hebt stuur me dan maar even een persoonlijk e-mailtje.

OK, that's enough. 1/2 to 1 cm is roughly 1/4 to less than 1/2". Which is the pole you are referring to? Do you have access to a digital camera? If so take some pictures and post them here or on the web with a link here. If you need help with all that e-mail me....(click on my name on left)

Oscar, in Austin TX, making bu's.

Edited by - on

nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 06:03:52

As Oscar suggested, I herewith post a few links of 'our blisters'. Maybe a bit difficult to see, scrolling a bit might help, but I hope someone recognizes what this can be.
Could this kind of blisters e.g. be caused by sudden temperature differences? We drove our boat from freezing outside to heated inside...
http://www.geocities.com/er_en_mar/FotosBoot/Hpim0339.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/er_en_mar/FotosBoot/Hpim0341.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/er_en_mar/FotosBoot/Hpim0342.jpg

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nynkebakker
 Hi, last summer we bought a Catalina 250, here in Holland (sorry for my poor English),build in 1996. We had a great summer with this boat and no serious problems. But last weekend, we discoverd a lot (hundreds) tiny blisters (maybe 1/2 to 1 centimeter; how many inchces is that?). Our first reaction was osmotic, but the strange thing is that we only discoverd these blisters above the waterline, e.g. at the back of the boat, nearby the pole and beside the windows. We can not find any information on the (Dutch) internet, so we hope that any of you can help us? What kind of blisters can these be? Could it be a type of osmosis? And if yes, what to do with it?
Thanks for reactions,
Nynke Bakker

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 10:05:20

Nynke,

When trying to view the pics, they are "unavailable"...this has something to do with your security settings. Although I don't remember the details, we've run into it before. Anyone help?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 10:50:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 Nynke,

When trying to view the pics, they are "unavailable"...this has something to do with your security settings. Although I don't remember the details, we've run into it before. Anyone help?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I, too, had difficulty opening the links, but when I copied the shortcut to a new browser window, the pictures opened up.

BTW...Nynke, I've never before seen anything like that ABOVE the waterline.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 11:04:26

Acid rain from Russia.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 13:00:56

email me the photos as attachments and I'll post them

jbaumgart@starrstuff.com

-JimB

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 13:21:09

This probably doesn't help much, it being a '96, but it looks a lot like a boat I saw that had been painted over the fiberglass. Must not have done a good prep job, 'cause it had little bumps like in your photos. You could pop them with your fingernail - had a little water in them.

If that actually is the gelcoat, I would guess that it is water that penetrated the gelcoat, then expanded to make the bumps appear. Structurally harmless, visually painful. Leave it or grind out each and every little one, dry them out and fill with gel paste, sand and polish until it shines like the rest of the boat.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 14:36:00

I didn't get a chance to see the pictures of the blisters, but maybe they can be compared to the single blemish on my hull as I'm not sure its a blister in the traditional sense of osmotic blisters. Mine is however below the water line. Note: My hull has never been bottom painted as lives on the trailer. I believe its too high to be on the outside of the ballast tank and Nynke pointed out that he has these or something like them and they ocurr at the back of the boat which would rule out water ballast tank effects.

Mine has two outcroppings, the most pronouced is about 1/4 inch in diameter and distends perhaps 1/8 inch and the second is right next to it and not as prominent. It has existed three years now with the lesser node coming later. The larger seems that it has arrested in size. Mine is very hard and a finger nail will not dent it. The gel coat surface has not crazed and seems to have stretched with the growth.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/blemish.jpg"]blister or blemish[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/04/2004 14:43:14

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 14:41:55

Good Old Boat magazine http://www.goodoldboat.com/ had an article awhile back about a Baba 40 that had the same problem all over the boat. Seems like it was a polyester resin problem. The owners spent a lot of time opening each blister and refilling them. I will try to find the issue and details. I'll post further....

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 15:04:09

Here are her pictures...So sorry!

Edited by - dlucier on 03/05/2004 12:09:15

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 15:41:43

Yikes... Very different from the single blemish I posted.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 17:13:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Here are his pictures...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That be a her......a good Frisian name. Frisian (Fries) is a language spoken in the province of Friesland, The Netherlands. Dutch, Frisian, German and English are all Germanic languages. To see their relationship look here:

http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/germanic.html

As far as the Leprosy....Nynke, have you popped (doorgestoken) one of these? I think you'll find one of two things:

1: They are relatively soft and rubbery....under it is Gelcoat, ie a smooth surface, in which case the boat was indeed painted. Look for other evidence of that, like paint ridges where masking tape (afplak band) would have been applied.

Or 2: They are very hard, thick and tough to break...brittle.....inside is a powdery rough crater, in which case there is indeed spontaneous total osmosis going on....

Right now I'm putting my money on a bad paint job. Finally, what is your hull #?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 03/04/2004 17:22:33

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 17:24:49

I have heard that bad things can happen under shrink wrap covers, they wick water under them. Has it been stored with a shrink wrap cover?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 17:43:17

Several years ago a C250 owner in the North East reported to the forum that when pulling the wrap off, the entire interior was covered with slimey mildew. There were several inches of water on the sole and it was felt that some how water was channeled into the boat.

If the shrink wrap was tight enough to stop up the anchor locker drain....Bingo

Edited by - on

nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 05:47:56

Goodmorning America,
Don, thanks for placing pictures... don't know why the links didn't work.
I recognize a lot in what John saw before: we can pop the blisters by fingernail, not very easy, but yes there is a little water in them. I don't know if the boat has been painted, we bought it last summer. If this is it, although harmless, I'm not getting very happy with it... think it might cost a lot of time and money to repair it... anybody any hope this will disappear when it will get warmer and dryer this summer (winter is freezing cold & rainy here in Holland).
We did not cover the boat at all, so the option Arlyn mentioned can not be it. (I was even afraid that not covering the boat could have caused this 'Leprosy'.)
SVMoxie, we would be very glad with the article.
We will test the two options Oscar mentioned, can not do that right now cause our boat lies a 100 miles further, but hopefully this weekend. Our boat has # 210.

And indeed, I'm a she and have indeed a Frisian background (and do even speek Frisian).

Thanks for all your help so far,
Nynke

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Mason
 This probably doesn't help much, it being a '96, but it looks a lot like a boat I saw that had been painted over the fiberglass. Must not have done a good prep job, 'cause it had little bumps like in your photos. You could pop them with your fingernail - had a little water in them.

If that actually is the gelcoat, I would guess that it is water that penetrated the gelcoat, then expanded to make the bumps appear. Structurally harmless, visually painful. Leave it or grind out each and every little one, dry them out and fill with gel paste, sand and polish until it shines like the rest of the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 11:19:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">anybody any hope this will disappear when it will get warmer and dryer this summer<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd say maybe if they were air bubbles. If there's water in them I doubt it.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 14:44:59

If it is paint, you might try to find a paint remover that is safe for fiberglass and see if you can just remove it. If you are careful, the fiberglass underneath should not be affected. Of course, once that's done you might discover the paint was put there to hide scratches or some other damage.

Even so, polishing that out would be preferable to the bubbled paint, in my opinion.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 15:50:25

Hello and welcome Nynke!

Today I was speaking with Catalina Yachts in Woodland Hills, California regarding my boat. We also spoke about the above pictures. They explained that they had received an email from you previously but without photos. They will now review these and send a reply in the near future.

Hopefully this problem is a result of poor paint application and not gel coat blisters. Related to blister diagnosis and repair information the following link should help (note that they also have a location in Aalsmeer, NL):

http://www.westsystem.com/

There are additional vendors that can supply gel coat that will match the color of your boat. Let us know if you need this informaton in the future.

From which port do you sail your boat?

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 03/05/2004 16:28:46

nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 17:05:30

Hello OJ,

Thanks for your welcome and information; we will contact Epifanes, the Dutch dealer of Westsystem you mentioned. And of course for speaking with Catalina Yachts, I'm very glad that you did that! (is always a bit more difficult from Holland).

We sail our boat from a small port (Joure); in Friesland, in the north of Holland. In the weekend we sail mainly on the Frisian Lakes, and now and then on the IJsselmeer (if you ever heard from that) or the Waddenzee.

For anyone interested: see 2 pictures of our boat (to prove that there is really a C 250 in Holland):
http://members.home.nl/nynke.bakker/Image13.jpg
http://members.home.nl/nynke.bakker/Image14.jpg

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 19:05:11

Nynke,

I blew up your pic...and couldn't tell for sure, but it appears your sail number is a 2??. I was curious if you now owned the boat of Deitrich Glognar but it is hull number 185. He bought it new and sails in Austria. There are at least two in Europe, we are indeed an international association.

Edited by - on

nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2004 : 17:49:09

Arlyn,

Our hull number is 210. We know there is at least one other C 250 in Holland, and als a few C 25's. Before we bought our boat we als had a look at a C 25, from the late 80's.
We bought our boat from the first owner, who bought it new in 1996. There is one Catalina dealer in the Netherlands, as far as I know, in Lelystad.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Nynke,

I blew up your pic...and couldn't tell for sure, but it appears your sail number is a 2??. I was curious if you now owned the boat of Deitrich Glognar but it is hull number 185. He bought it new and sails in Austria. There are at least two in Europe, we are indeed an international association.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2004 : 22:00:31

Nynke, Is the second picture during Sneekweek? Looks like a skutsje in the background....

Folks, check this out: (or do a google on "skutsjes") but it's all in Dutch

http://www.de-veenhoop.nl/images/skutsjes.jpg
http://www.skutsjesilen.nl/skutsjes/halvemaen.jpg
http://www.skutsjesilen.nl/skutsjes/leeuwarden.jpg
http://www.devriessails.nl/images/skutsjes.jpg

All Steel, former freighters..... shallow draft...., 60 or so feet, oak lee boards, wooden mast, cotton sails, hemp ropes wooden blocks...tiller (which takes more than one person to manhandle) no winches (and I seem to remember no engines, but that could be wrong....) Once a year racing. 70 or so years now....Syndicates against each other (usually a syndicate represents a village, although many boats are privately owned)...This is hard core. Makes the America's cup look like a bunch of faries

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 03/07/2004 22:10:38

nynkebakker
Deckhand

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Netherlands
6 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 03:22:17

Hi Oscar,
No, the second picture is not during the Sneekweek, but yes, it is a skutsje. It is on the 'Pikmeer', nearby Grouw, one of the most popular watersport villages in Holland. I didn't realize there was a skutsje on this picture, funny that you saw this!
The official skutsjes (used for official racing, named Skutsjesilen) don't have engines indeed.
My parents used to have another kind of typical Dutch boat, a so called 'schouw'. Also all steel, lee oak boards... but with an engine. These type of boats were in history mainly uses as fisherboats. Very suitable for the Dutch sea's, especially the Waddenzee, where because of tides it is very shallow and where are even a lot of drying sandbanks... that's why we are really glad with our C250 centreboard...

The second picture is made in Leeuwarden, the 'capital' of Friesland, tied up in the center of the city.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2004 : 00:05:42

I got an e-mail from Nynke. The boat was definitely NOT painted, and these ARE blisters. Consensus at this time is a manufacturing defect. She is awaiting evaluation by an expert. Catalina has taken the matter under consideration, but has not responded at this time.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay in Venice Inlet, Florida USA.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:11:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 I got an e-mail from Nynke. The boat was definitely NOT painted, and these ARE blisters.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where was Nynke's boat manufactured? I have heard that Catalina has a new factory somewhere in Florida in addition to the original Company HQ in Woodland Hills, California. I have also heard that the Florida plant may have had some quality control problems in a few boats. Blistering is a funny, unpredictable kind of problem. When Frank Gloss was shopping for a late model C-25 wing keel to replace his C-22, he looked at an '89 boat in North Carolina that was horribly blistered all on one side of the hull. The boat I bought last September in Virgina is identical to the one Frank looked at, only a few hull numbers difference, yet my boat had a clean hull depite having been kept full time in a Chesapeake Bay marina for 14 years. I suspect that the temperature and humidity on the factory floor on the day a boat hull is laid up may influence the water resistance properties of the resin for the rest of the life of the boat. In other words, if it was too hot or too cold or too humid on the day the boat hull was built, that boat will be more likely to suffer blistering than one built just a few days earlier or later in different weather conditions. I also suspect that different production batches of resin, even from the same manufacturer, can have slightly different chemical properties that affect the boats built with the resin. And of course there is always the possibility that a hull could be laid up by a worker using a resin gun set to mix too much or too little catalyst (MEKP) into the resin. Or the catalyst may have had a defect in it's strength or purity.

Edited by - on

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