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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Pop Top on "big water" boats

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Herb Clark
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/04/2004 : 14:23:25

I bet a sailor named Ziggy from Poland on S.B. Bay. He had a C-25 with a fk, outboard, running back stays, and a pop top! He had his new boat shipped to Italy where he began his circumnavigation. He invited me aboard to check out his rig and I noticed that he had doubled the hold down latches for his pop top and V berth hatch. He had spent time in the tropics and needed his pop top for ventilation and head room as he was a tall guy. The point is, this boat had sailed around the world and was headed to Alaska! With proper care, it should not be a problem using a pop top on a boat headed to big water. I don't think I would recommend a swing keel for off shore passages, although we have crossed the Dixon Entrance with ours when we sailed from Prince Rupert to Juno, Alaska. We did pick our weather carefully!!!
Hotel Charlie
Chico Y.C.
C-25 TR, SK, 2nd Honda
ps. I added brakes to the front axel of our trailer and it can now stop the F250 almost on a dime!

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 17:39:18

Herb,
I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that people who think through their equipment can make ocean crossings in smaller boat; the literature is full of crossings by people who deliberately try to do it in the least amount of boat, a genre I call "crossing the Atlantic in a walnut shell". Tanya Aebi did her crossing in a Contessa 26, a boat in the same size range as our C25 (but with a more serious level of hardware).

At the same time anyone who does so should be well versed in the theory of WHY THEY SHOULD NOT; The Cruising Club of America and other keepers of such knowledge have worked out a body of theory that basically says hardware must be proportional to the size and force of waves in severe conditions in unrestricted bodies of water, and hulls must be resistant to rollover and eager to re-right themselves.

When looked at from classical cruiser theory, the C25 is considered wanting first in regard to length; the CCA doesn't allow boats under 36' to take part in the Newport-Bermuda races because that length is considered to be the minimum for making headway in average wave troughs in severe ocean storms without being pitchpoled. The C25 rudder and auxiliary motor system is more exposed to being torn off, as they are exposed from above to the tearing forces of large waves, which tend to strip most deck hardware when a cruising boat takes one from above; and the mast and deck hardware are probably not strong enough to resist being torn off in severe conditions, especially with a deck-stepped mast. Cruising boats also need to be able to right themselves in less than 2 minutes if the crew is to be able to survive and recover after a rollover; the hatch and companionway system must be very sturdy to prevent loss of all air pockets during this time.

In general the European Union and other guidelines for classifying boats are based on engineering realities that can't be ignored lightly. The C25 isn't a walnut shell, but it also isn't made for the worst the sea can offer...

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - Raskal on 03/04/2004 17:40:49

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 18:43:38

I agree with Rich. I've been caught out in some serious shxt on Canyon Lake - with the marina only a mile away, and been very thankful to get back to the slip. I'd hate, for instance, to be in the gulf stream with "TSU" with an unexpected norther blowing in...

Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 21:48:21

We all have Angels, it sounds like Ziggy's are on duty 24-7

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 22:46:47

Some people jump out of airplanes for fun, and a few go SPLAT. Some people climb rock walls for fun, and a few go THUNK. Some people kayak through raging whitewater, and a few go GLUB. Some people try to sail across oceans in boats not built for the purpose, and a few don't turn up on the other side. I guess some people relish the risk.

I agree with Rich--the C-25 is nowhere near a blue-water boat, meaning designed to take a beating when there's no place to hide. To Derek's point, a wind opposing the current of the Gulf Stream, combined with the squalls that the Stream generates on its own, create fearsome conditions for much larger boats--I know people who have faced them. You can try it in a C-25 "walnut shell" if you're driven to prove something to somebody. To me, you will have proven that you don't have anyone who loves you, or you don't give a damned about the people who do.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 23:42:53

Gotta also agree with Rich, but you should NOT be afraid to put your Cat 25 thru its paces in tough weather...... We have broached Confetti and rolled the mast head under while surfing into the entrance at Ventura during a nasty storm we were caught in while coming back from Santa Barbara (watch out for those Santa Ana Winds!!!). She popped right back up with only the windex being damaged (and my shorts a bit soiled)

We have also broken the rudder in two while spinnaker power reaching in big waves, and have bent the original mast due to a lower shroud failure (thats when I went to a tall rig). Good observations again by Rich on the strength of hardware.....

Got t-boned by a Vega in a race and his whole bow was crushed and he lost his rig (he lost his rudder and did a sudden 90 deg turn right into us). I only needed a new rub rail and rail track and some new gel coat. Also had a 30ft boat ram us (we were on stbd with the port rail down and he rode up over the foredeck coming thru the 150 like a highschool football team after 1/2 time till his keel hit the port rail and he stopped). Took out a section of port rail and the port shrouds but the mast stayed up since we were on stbd...... jeez, maybe I need to remove the targets that some folks must think are there! There IS a big lesson in this though, to NOT rely on inexperienced crew to watch below for crossing boats in a race!

Bottom line, I think the boat will take a LOT more than most sailors will take, but a Cat 25 is NOT designed to be a serious bluewater boat...... We sail off shore (but still in coastal waters) all the time in our Cat 25, but we do try to watch the weather!!!! Offshore is a different world and the forces are not like you have ever seen unless you have been there during a REAL storm (got caught in a Pacific hurricane a long time ago on a big boat..... but thats another story).

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 03/04/2004 23:44:44

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 08:49:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 
We have also broken the rudder in two while spinnaker power reaching... bent the original mast due to a lower shroud failure ...
Got t-boned by a Vega in a race... Also had a 30ft boat ram us...
Chuck
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Perhaps you should get out of sailing and into some other safer form of recreation like Base Jumping or bare-hands rock climbing.

I have to agree with the above posts. The Catalina 25 is a stout little boat, but is NOT a blue water passage-maker. One should never forget that in extreme conditions, the open sea can produce waves a hundred feet tall or more. Someone has calculated that certain parts of the Pacific Ocean have enough fetch that a typhoon could in theory build waves 198' from trough to crest (from "The Perfect Storm" by Sebastian Junger). In December 1944, A U.S. Navy task force lost three full-size destroyers, the USS Spence, USS Hull, and USS Monaghan. They were caught in a typhoon in the western Pacific, and foundered in waves that eyewinesses reported "exceeded the height of the masthead", almost 90' above the waterline! Only about 50 crew from one of the ships survived and were rescued. These survivors reported that their ship was taking rolls up to 70º at the height of the storm.

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 09:52:39

The overpowering lure of blue water sailing should be tempered with consideration(s) toward blue water boats.

Read Fastnet, Force 10 and its companion book Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts.
These studies of how boats and equipment failed during that 1979 ocean race will help you choose a better boat than the C25 for bluewater cruising.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 09:59:03

Chuck: Are you racing PHRF or NASCAR??

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 11:06:50

I must offer my 'two clams' here ... reading this thread I feel the adrenalin levels rising in my tissues ... I believe adrenalin is an addiction that needs to be managed carefully.

This kind of excitement is part of why people sail. Now, I must admit to being quite inexperienced (even if fairly well trained) at sailing in challenging conditions. However, I've turned (or returned) to sailing now in my forties after spending the last two and a half decades climbing everything everything from 20K' plus peaks and frozen waterfalls to one story boulders in the local city park. I instructed for a time at one of the more prestigious schools. I didn't start out at this level. I started out with good instruction and mentors, and gained my experience and expertise over years. Still, there are uncontrollable objective hazards one is exposed to ... whether it's an avalanche or a rogue wave.

What I'm getting at is that the mental approach to such activities, whether sailing, climbing, kayaking, or parachuting, is paramount. It's balancing the risks with the right equipment and more importantly, the judgement born of experience and training, that grants us a margin of safety in a hazardous environment. The 'rush' occurs when pushing one's ability (and equipment) and can occur at any level. While I'm comfortable several hundred feet off the ground attached to frozen waterfall with sharp pointy metal things, the first time I left the Berkeley Marina in a J24 with 25 knot winds I 'bout crapped my chaps. Fortunately I had very competent skipper-instructor, and our actions were 'de rigeur' to her. Unfortunately, there are knuckleheads in every one of these activities as well. Witness the unfortunates who lost their boat (and one soul) in SF Bay recently .... 'just shouldn'ta been where they were.

Blue water sailing is a dream for me. I hope to not only make, but skipper more than one big crossing in this life. In the meantime I intend to learn in steps, gaining levels, and at each level experience the rush of challenging myself, and growing in the process.

I have no intention of getting hurt or dying in this process, or worse yet, harming someone else. I do intend to have a great deal of fun doing it, and occasionally feel the rush where we learn 'that's OK' or 'that's NOT OK'. Small steps, one at a time.

After about a decade of climbing I noticed my peers didn't really brag anymore; instead of discussing how great and what studs they were, they discussed how they stayed alive and if possible, comfortable, in some really crazy places. I see numerous parallels with sailing.

I suspect the ocean, like gravity, is a stern and unforgiving teacher.

Rest assured I won't being going to Hawaii in the WB C250!

Woot! Fun stuff ... 'gotta go fix the leak in the front hatch now; it rained bats and frogs last night.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 13:00:28

I figure if I can learn to single hand my C25 in nearly everything the southern CA ocean has to throw at it, I can handle a blue water boat offshore some day. I get nearly overwhelmed alone in winds over 15 knots (in the harbor - not offshore where there is room!) So I've learned to reef quickly.

Chuck Shaw - you have a lot of experience and it would be great if you could join our Fleet 7 cruise to Catalina Island this summer Aug 2 - 20. I've been doing a lot of planning and am really looking forward to making the run around the West end to Catalina Harbor and then offshore to Santa Barbara Island, follow up with a circumnavigation of Catalina, then departing for points home.

Edited by - on

Bill Sloane
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 16:14:40

Chuck

That's the best series of incidents I've read about since I finished the book "The Boat that Wouldn't Float". I think I better do some more racing this summer. . . . .

Bill

C-25 SR SK No. 496
Suede Shoes

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2004 : 23:10:56

Hi folks,

I did not mean to leave the impression I have been [overly] reckless or snake bit, although I guess it did sound like I am the poster baby for demolition derbies! We have sailed Confetti for 28 of the 42 years I have been sailing, and have raced her VERY hard, so we have had a lot of opportunities for "learning experiences" (good thing too I guess, since I am obviously a slow learner!)

What I was hoping to share was my opinion that Catalina 25's are quite durable boats (based on some of my adventures), but in NO WAY do I think they should be considered durable enough to be a true blue water cruiser (although you can certainly safely sail open water, even in reasonably rough weather).

Bill, yes, get out there and race! You will have fun, and more importantly learn a lot about how to sail more effeciently.

Jim, Your cruise to Catalina and also Santa Barbara Islands sounds GREAT!!!! Last time I was at Catalina we picked up a mooring at Moonstone after sailing down from Ventura, and then a similar thing to Santa Barbara island and back that you are planning. GREAT fun!!!! Problem is, Confetti now lives on Galveston Bay in Texas, so it would be a LONG portage to get back to our old sailing waters!!! Thanks for the invite though!!!!

Smooth sailing!

Chuck

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