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rookie asking questions-Cat 25 Swing Keel

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Joe Cox
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/13/2004 : 07:37:51

Hello all:

I was wondering if y'all could point out any specfic items of concern when I look over an 1980 Catalina 25 Swing Keel boat in the next couple days?

What should I look for regarding the keel? Wobble? Pin wear? Cable and winch?

Spreader sockets on mast? Deck delamination common concern, especially at tabernackle????

The boat's been sitting in a consignment yard for several years now. Owner of yard is apparently anixious to move boat. Has a 1990? Honda 8hp four stroke. Topsides has big, really big chafe marks on both sides from rubbing up against the fenders while docked. Topsides will definitely need refinishing (paint?) Bottom paint (very thin and flaking in places) does not appear to hiding any defects and the bottom is free of mud and growth. Most probably an all freshwater boat as this is the middle of S.C.

Has roller furling of unk manfacturer. Will indentify will next back at boat. Will measure mast to determine rig (I really want a tall rig). Rumored to have new mainsail. Minor pieces of plastic trim missing or sun damaged. Haven't check for bulkhead rot (leaking stanchions, etc.). Interior farily nasty-good cleaning, or maybe the fabric is shot? All brightwork ain't bright.

Have no intention of racing this boat, at least no serious intentions (a.k.a. lots'a money on racing sails, etc.). I figure it won't point as high as a fin keel, but that's not a concern.

Assuming the OB runs and my description is accurate, would anyone be brave enough to hazard a dollar value on this boat?

Thanks in advance,
Joe

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 09:07:31

Watch me blow it here with my "advice"! Someone on this forum is SURE to disagree; but, hey, that's okay, too.

You do not mention a trailer, which, IMHO is the main reason own a swinger. Truth be told, if I was not trailering, I would probably NOT sail a Cat 25. If there is a decent tandem axle trailer involved, it is probably worth in the viscinity of $2,000 by itself. If there is not one.........well, are you SURE you want a swinger with the bit of added maintenance and VERY slight (IMHO) risk of failure? If no trailer, the value of this boat just went DOWN a bunch.

Sounds to me like this boat could be picked up for a song....from the description you have given. Appearance is EVERYTHING in boat sales.....Besides your own judgment on wiggling the keel to check for slop at the pin, checking carefully on your own for signs of delam (if you have any idea how to do it), checking to see if the rigging is the older, substandard closed turnbuckles or upgraded open ones, whether the spreader sockets have been changed out, etc.....(sounds like you have some experience on this forum).....You should give real consideration to a survey.

I would not pay for one personally, because I think I know what to look for, but ," If in doubt, shell it out" is my motto, and hire a surveyor. It will cost probably $300 or so....maybe 10% or more of the selling cost of the boat, but it would make you aware of what you face.

Again, in my opinion,...don't waste a bunch of time worrying about the cable and turning ball itself; plan on replacing both as a matter of routine maintenance....unless the price tag is still attached and shows NO use! Also, if you can buy the boat cheaply enough and the hull is in decent condition, you should be able to afford new standing rigging. It is probably time for the original stuff to be replaced, even IF it's been a freshwater boat.

Assuming a relatively solid hull, other larger expenses would have to include a decent engine bracket, electronics you need, the outboard itself, sails, of course, and refurbishing the interior. All the extras: fenders, lines, anchors, rodes, life jackets, etc. can add up fast. What "extras" come with her?

Depending upon your skill and risk level, the cosmetic things like buffing the hull, sewing cushion covers, new sunbrella canvas and refinishing the exterior teak could be mostly labor.....I have done all of these things on my boat, and one other "project" boat I bought cheaply, fixed up, then sold. The labor was NOT worth the profit I made, and I would NOT do it again, except maybe on a boat I wanted to keep for myself...like you with this one...

Good luck....try to "steal" it, if you do it at all. Boats in relatively poor condition like this one sounds can sell for $2500...maybe even less, but I haven't SEEN the boat....so all bets are off......

Hope this helps a bit.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - Gary B. on 03/13/2004 09:11:58

Blueye
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 09:12:12

Sounds as if it will require some work, but if you have the time, tools, skills and cash to bring it back to something you can be proud of..then I suggest buying it. I would venture an initial offer of around $3500-4000 depending on sail condition.

On the other hand, if your more interested in sailing than working on them, study the boat market and find another. There may be a good reason this Catalina 25 has been stitting for awhile.

Good Luck!

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 09:51:18

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/summertm.html

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/summert2.html

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 10:46:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Assuming the OB runs and my description is accurate, would anyone be brave enough to hazard a dollar value on this boat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It would be impossible for anyone to assign a value to the boat you are looking at because a $2,000 boat in one area might be $8,000 in another.

If this boat has been on the block for several years it probably is either overpriced, needs too much work, or a little of both.

A few years ago, a couple at my marina were trying to sell their 25 year old Columbia that they had extensively upgraded over the years, but because their perceived value greatly exceeded what everyone else thought it was worth, it remained for sale for years. They ended up practically giving it away at 20% of their original asking price, but their only other choice was to let it rot and get nothing. (It's amazing to me how some people will actually hold onto a boat and let it rot to junk, rather than selling it at a more realistic price)

Since a boat is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, I suggest asking the seller what is the best he'll take for the boat and go from there.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 12:41:41

offer $1500 If they say no, inch up. Motor is worth about 900 -if its running. New sails could cost you $1500. New lines can cost 500. If deck is spongy or bulkheads are rotted from leaks, keep looking. Check the boat bow to stern for flaws. Turn on every switch. Hoist the sails. Make a catalog of everything thrown in (barbeque, autopilot, gps, etc.) These can raise the value. Make a list of all upgrades (balanced rudder, lines led aft, winches, extra sails, etc.) Make a list of everything that doesn't work.

1980 boat in good condition is worth about $5000 and up. Trailer? Another 2K.

Just my opinion, southern CA prices.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2004 : 16:31:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 1980 boat in good condition is worth about $5000 and up. Trailer? Another 2K.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't underestimate the value of the trailer! $2000 is on the low side, at least in California. Brand new trailers with sufficient load capacity for a Catalina 25 range from "El Cheapo" models around $3500 (non-galvanized, bunks instead of rollers, 7500# capacity, drum brakes) to "Deluxe" for almost $9000 (fully galvanized, built-in boarding ladder, stainless hardware, disc brakes, 10,500# capacity). In other words, if the trailer sitting under a Catalina 25 is in good shape and has a heavy-duty, galvanized frame and axles with disc brakes, the trailer alone could be worth more than the boat.

Edited by - on

Joe Cox
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2004 : 19:41:44

Thanks to all:

Y'all made some very important points. NO TRAILER is included. No trailer is in our immediate plans since we only have a GMC 1500 truck, nothing big enough to tow this or any other 25' boat. Besides, rigging a 25 for each weekend would be very tedious. If we get any boat over 21-22 feet, it will be wet-sailed.

This swing keel is the only Catalina 25 in the yard and it just caught my eye. Haven't had time to revisit and inspect closely.

In the future, can I spot any hardware items which need the "standard Catalina" upgrade (terminals, sockets, etc.)?

Thanks again,

Joe

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2004 : 21:09:31

The spreader sockets should be welded stainless rather than cast aluminum--it's easy to see the weld between the tube and the base. But that's easy to replace--not something to shy away from in a purchase. "To-hull" fittings (bronze tubes threaded into the hull with an epoxy mushroom inside) should be upgraded to true thru-hulls (with a dome or flush plate on the outside of the hull). By the time my '85 was built, both features were standard, as was the fuel locker molded into the cockpit--keeping gas tanks out of the sail locker where the electircal panel is, and where fumes can migrate to and collect in the bilge. I've never heard of a C-25 blowing up, but I like my fuel locker.

I'll add a vote in favor of a professional survey on any C-25... For about 3 boat units, at the very least you learn a bunch about your upcoming projects. "Worst case", you find out that a significant amount of the deck core is saturated and probably rotten, or the swing keel has done a free-fall and smashed the trunk. Either way, you can't lose.

Keep looking--a decent C-25 is a value worth searching for!

Edited by - on

rford
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2004 : 00:39:59

GMC 1500 should be big enough to tow it ... I tow with a Chev 1500 easily enough.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2004 : 08:29:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">GMC 1500 should be big enough to tow it ... I tow with a Chev 1500 easily enough.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A chevy or GMC pickup is enough to pull a C25 but is light. Be careful!!! Go slowly and watch the curves. We used to tow with a 3/4 ton Suburban and now use a 1/2 ton Yukon (Tahoe size) I came close to losing it on one of my first sweeping turns.

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2004 : 23:47:50

Joe,
I may have missed advise from the board on suspect items on a swinger, but after replacing the "cable tube" on my 86 SK, I was alarmed how decomposed this rubber tube was on the inside, while looking fine on the outside. If this cable tube fails while you are on the water, you will sink faster than you can say Davey Jones loc..... Two more weeks to splash. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

kansasboatman
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 00:35:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Cox
 Thanks to all:

Y'all made some very important points. NO TRAILER is included. No trailer is in our immediate plans since we only have a GMC 1500 truck, nothing big enough to tow this or any other 25' boat. Besides, rigging a 25 for each weekend would be very tedious. If we get any boat over 21-22 feet, it will be wet-sailed.

This swing keel is the only Catalina 25 in the yard and it just caught my eye. Haven't had time to revisit and inspect closely.

In the future, can I spot any hardware items which need the "standard Catalina" upgrade (terminals, sockets, etc.)?

Thanks again,

Joe
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

kansasboatman
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 00:50:07

Hi Joe

We bought a 78 Catalina 25 two years ago and it has been a work in progress...wish we had had it surveyed.....on the other hand....for the opportunity to jumb into a mid sized weekend cruiser it worked out ok. So far I have completely overhauled the 9.9 evinrude....twice!!!...darn Kansas mud dobbers...jus cant resist builkding their nests up the exhaust port.

patched up the sails and had some sail repair work done at a local sail shop. Replaced the swing keel cable. cleaned up all the mold on the deck and in the hld. Hot steam cleaned the cushions..rplaced the trailer tiers with heavy duty trailer tires....but a real work in progress...would like to replace the water tank system and electrical work this spring...but probably...fat chance.
i agree...trailer alone is worth about $2,500...and I still have not got hydraulic brakes repaired the last two summers with boat slipped and trailer sitting idle....I think you will discover that the boat is a tad too big to routinely haul and launch. Still have not got around to redoing the hull.....had a form fitting boat cover made as well as a gemini....paid $5,600 for whole thing in June of 2002. If I had it to do all over again...I would have gone for a newer boat...or sightly larger 27 or 30 ft as we want to sail on the Gulf inter water ways......anybody out there wanting to trade down ...downsize from a 30 or 27.

Take care

Kansas Boatman

Edited by - on

Steve Shetter
1st Mate

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USA
60 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 11:51:22

Joe,

About 16 months ago, I bought my first boat. I had never heard of a surveyor, so I took my chances on the '81 - 25' Cataliina. Everything was sound, but cosmetically, she needed a lot of help. The PO hadn't done anything to her for several years. The only BIG expense was to recondition her hull. That alone cost more than I paid for the boat and a GOOD tandem axle trailer. Initial cost with the trailer $3900. Additionally, she came with an $800 air conditioner, three head sails and a good mainsail, the motor, a propane grill and some other small things. Since then, I have repaired, sealed and repainted the bottom, new lines, buffed her out (topsides will need paint soon), tuned up the 7.5 hp Honda OB. Things yet to do, new cushion covers, check the keel pin and cable, seal the windows (this spring) and rebuild the marine head also this spring).

Would I do it over again?... in a heartbeat! I went into this deal completely blind and having never set foot on a sailboat. Not too smart...huh? In doing so much to her, I have learned more than I could ever have learned so quickly, had she been pristine. Maybe it's the pride of ownership and accomplishment, but I sure do love to sail her, and I feel more comfortable with her than I would, otherwise.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 12:00:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Shetter
 About 16 months ago, I bought my first boat. I had never heard of a surveyor, so I took my chances on the '81 - 25' Catalina...Would I do it over again?... in a heartbeat! I went into this deal completely blind and having never set foot on a sailboat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I got in to sailing the exact same way as you...I found and bought a boat that needed some work, fixed it up, then read some sailing books so I wouldn't sink her on the first time out. Like you said, having to go over the boat and learn everything from scratch really made me comfortable on that first sail.

Edited by - on

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