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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

loose horse

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2004 : 16:23:49

How do you get to the bolts that hold our traveler bar in place? Mine is a little loose.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2004 : 16:38:10

cut a couple of holes in the fiberglass of the transom (mine are covered with duct tape waiting someday for something better).

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2004 : 18:23:51

I went through the hole-cutting and access cover installation routine last season, but did discover in the process that it would have been possible to tighten or loosen the horse nuts with a combination of a long ratchet-wrench extension, flexible angle piece, small mirror, and flashlight. You have to be small enough to get inside the port locker to do that side; on starboard, you're looking up from where the shelf meets the end of the cockpit floor (not from lower down behind the access hatch).

One wild card is whether your bolts are partially glassed in by spilled fiberglass; mine were, so I had to do the cutting. Inspecting with the mirror first would be the logical step if you want to try it this way.

Rich K.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2004 : 21:26:48

Frank,

I agree with Rich K. That's how I removed and installed my stern rail. I could see the traveler fasteners up inside there too. It is a bit tight.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Carl B.
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 21:24:33

What size Socket dose it take?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 14:57:20

I took a photo of the horse nut. It does not look like a nut to me. It looks like a bolt head. Is the horse a threaded tube? Also I do not see any way to get a socket on it. Do you?

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 15:53:30

I took a photo of the horse nut. It does not look like a nut to me. It looks like a bolt head. Is the horse a threaded tube? Also I do not see any way to get a socket on it. Do you? - Frank

Hi Frank,

I think you're right ... I think it is a bolt that screws into the end of the traveler.

I stood on my head for well over an hour last year trying to tighten mine. I used a mirror and a flashlight, but I NEVER could get the socket on the head of the bolt ... I got so mad at it I was making up curse words.

Your photo is worth a thousand words ... how in the world did you get that picture?! Anyway, I can certainly see now why I was never able to get a socket on the head of that bolt. BTW, since I had to just leave it loose, I ended up putting some 3M 4200 around the traveler bar where it joins the transom so it wouldn't leak ... 'still wish I could have figured out a way to tighten that thing without cutting holes and installing inspection plates.

If you figure this one out Frank, you definitely get a gold star!

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 18:04:24

That's it! Great picture--like one of those medical textbooks...

Tightening a loose nut will be more feasible than removing a tight one, where the part of the bolt you can't see may be right up against the liner or even glassed in from spilled epoxy. You may be able to get the head of a short ratchet wrench (attached to a long extension) onto enough sides of the exposed head to begin turning it. Using a short flexible knuckle between the extender and the ratchet head might give you a better angle (There's more space between the bolt head and the protruding edge than you would think from the picture). I've seen fully flexible ratchet extenders but haven't tried one.

Why go through all this trouble? Well, as difficult as it seems it will still be a lot less work that drilling those access plate holes in your cockpit and installing the plates.

I would warn anyone who does the access plate route that the edge of the seat coamings are a little too short for the smallest standard Beckson plates (6"), so your choice would be to alter the Beckson plate (trimming off bottom edge of the circle) or use the less heavy-duty 5" ventilation plate that pops out with a screwdriver (which is what I did). You would have an ugly gap if you don't trim the 6" plate ring. You'll also need to trim away some of the inner ring to keep it from bumping that bolt head. If that sounds like a lot of work for someone who doesn't own tools then you may want to keep after that bolt with the wrench...

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 23:04:28

Just brainstorming this problem but what if you cut inspection holes from the outside of the boat? I know this is a "through-the-hull" situation. However, it seems that the holes would be high up on the transom anyway. You could then use a sealant to glue a flat cover plate over the hole, sealing it.
Maybe glue in a fishing pole holder or something

Just a thought.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 23:08:31

Here's another idea (maybe): You could use a Dremel to carve out that edge above (below) the bolt head so that a socket could (theoretically) reach the whole head....maybe. Seems to be enough of the liner (?) there to cut into without cutting completely through.

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 12:14:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">what if you cut inspection holes from the outside of the boat? I know this is a "through-the-hull" situation. However, it seems that the holes would be high up on the transom anyway. You could then use a sealant to glue a flat cover plate over the hole, sealing it.
Maybe glue in a fishing pole holder or something<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you're a fisherman, the last idea is worth a shot. Otherwise, putting the access plates in from the cockpit side will be a lot easier and less damaging than trying to go through the transom. The hull is very thick at that point and is the structural support for the backstays, motor, rudder, you name it; a hole would weaken it. The little access ports in the cockpit seem to be aesthetically pleasing, makes your C25 look like a little J-boat, if that matters...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Here's another idea (maybe): You could use a Dremel to carve out that edge above (below) the bolt head so that a socket could (theoretically) reach the whole head....maybe. Seems to be enough of the liner (?) there to cut into without cutting completely through<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now there's some creative thinking! I think you'll be able to do that on the starboard side but few people will be flexible enough to fit their bodies into the locker the right way to hold the tools on the port side.

I've always thought the way to get a better horse on the C25 short of doing mid-boom sheeting would be to run a rail along the top of the stern taffrail (or pushpit, as some are calling it). I think there's plenty of support distributed throught the rail attachments, but the car would have to be modifed for the thickness of the rail. But that's for another thread...

Rich K.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 12:26:53

You might try using a basin wrench to get to the bolt, but it looks like it may be too tight a fit for it.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 13:10:33

I think we should give a prize to the person who comes up with a solution to this problem with the least amount of damage to the boat.
As undesirable as it is to me to cut inspection holes in the cockpit to get to those #@%&$ bolts its starting to appear thats the only way to access them. I know I would be VERY appreciative if someone with a little more brain power than myself could come up with a workable solution.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith,AR

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 16:58:27

Who designed the Catalina 25 anyways? Maybe we could ask him/her how it was intended to fix this problem.

Nah, on second thought, that's a dumb idea

Never mind

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 18:38:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 I think we should give a prize to the person who comes up with a solution to this problem with the least amount of damage to the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
How about hiring one of those non-existant little guys with sockets on the ends of their long skinny fingers that Detroit must thing are around everywhere (else why do they design cars so darn impossible to work on??)

-c-

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 21:25:16

<center>C-25 Traveler Horse Woes</center>

Chuck -- Re: "How about hiring one of those non-existant little guys with sockets on the ends of their long skinny fingers that Detroit must think are around everywhere..."

I think those little guys are much more common in Japan, based on my experience working on various vehicles from around the world. (Long colorful rant against clueless engineers deleted here.)

But I digress. Let's combine:

Gloss's: "Who designed the Catalina 25 anyways? Maybe we could ask him/her how it was intended to fix this problem..."

<center>-- and --</center>
Charlie's: "I think we should give a prize to the person who comes up with a solution to this problem with the least amount of damage to the boat. ... I know I would be VERY appreciative if someone with a little more brain power than myself could come up with a workable solution. ..."

How about this. Get Catalina Yachts to produce an upgraded, easily retrofitted traveler bar, and bless it as class-legal. Here goes a thousand words instead of a picture.

Think of the simple cheap old fashioned metal bathroom towel rack. A metal bar a couple of feet long, bent at right angles a couple of inches from the ends, with stamped metal feet welded to the ends with a couple of screw holes for attaching to the wall. (Yeah, those are mighty poor towel holders, but bear with me...)

Now try to picture a C-25 traveler version of that. Round stainless steel bar or tubing 1/2" diameter, bent at ends so that traveler car clears split backstay, just long enough that ends of bar line up with inboard pushpit stanchions. Ends of bar welded or bolted to split stainless steel clamps (sort of like motorcycle handlebar clamps, or frame accessory mounts) that are assembled around the inboard pushpit stanchions with two 5/16" or four 1/4" bolts each. As an added bonus, this contraption would add a couple more inches of badly needed traveler range.

Is there anyone here who wouldn't pay $50 or more for such an item to solve the loose horse problem once and for all without fiberglass surgery? We can design this thing by cyber-committee, and then try to convince Catalina Yachts that there are enough of us out there, with deep enough pockets, to make it worth their while to knock out a few of these and see what happens next. What do y'all think?

<center>-- or --</center>
To make room for a socket to get at the existing traveler bolts, wrap a large deep socket with course sandpaper using stick&peel sandpaper advesive. Spin the socket with a right-angle drill motor, or whatever it takes. Use this improvised long reach drum sander to dig a relief in the hull liner leading to the partially obstructed bolt. Be careful you don't also dig through the transom to daylight while you're at it.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 22:07:56

How about cutting a notch into the bolt head and then tightening the bolt with a slotted screwdriver?

Or drilling the center of the bolt head and tapping it to accept a smaller, short allen style bolt and then tighten the allen bolt with an allen key?

Or drilling a pilot hole in the bolt head for a short, self tapping machine screw which can then be tightened with a scewdriver?

Anyway, these are my harebrained ideas.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 00:24:02

Mark,

You're onto something there. How about just replacing the already loose hex head bolt with a stainless steel allen head one? Getting a square-drive allen wrench up in there wouldn't be nearly as difficult as trying to fit a socket.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 07:56:00

Frank, how did Gary S. of Kansas Twister remove his before installing the Harken traveller bar?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 09:59:41

Sometimes you have to make a special tool... cut the end off an open end wrench and weld it to a piece of barstock. It would still be quite a chore if you want to take the whole thing out.. but it shouldn't be too too bad if you just needed to tighten it up a bit though.

The idea about using an allen bolt to replace it is a good one... torx might be even better as they tend to be self-aligning.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 11:22:13

I thought it might be easier to tighten it up rather than take it out because the bolt appears to be too long to move past the point where it is almost glassed in place, but if the bolt can be removed and replaced with an allen or torx bolt, that would be the ideal solution. If the bolt isn't too long to be removed but is too tight to be removed by hand, or a wrench can't be placed around it, "an easy out", inserted into a drilled pilot hole would do the trick.

If the bolt is too long to be removed without damaging the glass, tightening it up might be the best remaining solution.

What a lousy design feature.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 14:34:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Loyacano
 Frank, how did Gary S. of Kansas Twister remove his before installing the Harken traveller bar?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No clue here:

I called Gary and he will check out this thread when he gets to work Mon.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/27/2004 15:04:57

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2004 : 21:35:29

http://us.binnacle.com:80/online/product.asp?dept%5Fid=6050& pf%5Fid=31290
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=12916
Is three inches enough?

will these work?
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes& vertical=TOOL& pid=00904362000

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/27/2004 21:59:53

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2004 : 08:42:54

I think I have it. You can send the reward if it works!

1. Buy the crows foot that fits. If you don't know, get a cheap set from Harbour freight.

2. buy a CHEAP 3/8 socket extention. The longer the better.

3. Go to your local welder with a 12 pack of beer and have him weld the two together as drawn.

4. Tighten the thing up and get on with sailing.

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/100/100076/folders/138473/971365untitled.JPG

5 If all else fails go for the inspection plate.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2004 : 09:25:05

atgep wrote... "I think I have it. You can send the reward if it works! "

Clam replies... "But I have prior art on that patent!"

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2004 : 10:59:33

If you want to replace the traveler with a new version, you could:
1. Cut the old traveler.
2. Unscrew the traveler parts to expose the threads of the bolt.
3. Then, either cut the bolt flush with the gunnel there or cut
a hole around it to lift out the bolt through the top.
4. Patch the hole, or patch over the top of bolt after it's cut flush.
5. Install new traveler over the top of the mess. No one would be
the wiser.

Edited by - on

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