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Loose footed main-clew construction? Bolt Rope?

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premodco
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:41:10

I just received my new loose footed main. Great sail, but it has a bolt rope in the foot. When I called the dealer, they checked with the loft and offered to remove the rope. They said it was a mistake the rope was added. I was concerned that the clew of a loose footed main was built stronger because it alone carried the strain that was normally distributed along the boom. The sail maker, who is different than the dealer, maintains the loose footed main is built identically except for the bolt rope. Any input?

adam starr

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cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:50:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by premodco
 I just received my new loose footed main. Great sail, but it has a bolt rope in the foot. When I called the dealer, they checked with the loft and offered to remove the rope. They said it was a mistake the rope was added. I was concerned that the clew of a loose footed main was built stronger because it alone carried the strain that was normally distributed along the boom. The sail maker, who is different than the dealer, maintains the loose footed main is built identically except for the bolt rope. Any input?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I do not like bolt ropes in loose footed mains. I do not have one in mine nor any I have built. They make the foot too stiff and not allow it to form a smooth curve when really bagged up, and also limit the amount of foot roach you can effectively use. There is no need for a footrope structurally. If there was, jibs would also have them...... <smile> Compare the reenforcing in your main's clew to a jib's clew that you use in heavier winds... I am betting the main is the same or already heavier simply due to the heavier cloth mains are usually made of. If you don't think it looks strong enough, have them run a couple of reenforcing tapes through the grommet and up into the sail about 6-8"...

My suggestion would be to take them up on removing it. It was good they admitted to having attached it in error!

Chuck

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Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 18:13:09

Okay, this is an issue I'm totally ignorant about--I haven't ever read in any article or forum of anyone trying to use a loose-footed main on a modern sloop. What's the theory behind it? When would you use it and why? Will you guys who know what you're doing here explain it for us novices?

Rich Kokoska

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 23:13:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 Okay, this is an issue I'm totally ignorant about--I haven't ever read in any article or forum of anyone trying to use a loose-footed main on a modern sloop. What's the theory behind it? When would you use it and why? Will you guys who know what you're doing here explain it for us novices?

Rich Kokoska
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rich,

The theory behind the loose-footed main is that since the foot is not connected via a bolt rope to the boom, it has better adjustability. I have a loose-footed main and it is definitely easier to trim and see the sail shape than it was with my old bolt-rope main.

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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423 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 13:26:02

Kind of an off-the-wall way to look at it but think of your jib with a boom and the shapes you need to get from it to trim your sails. You couldn't get those shapes if it had a bolt rope. The same applies to the main, the more options you have to shape the sail the better your sail trim will be and a loose foot gives you those options.(IMHO) I say have the sailmaker remove the rope but also make sure there is a way to adjust the crunch of the foot. (I've gone brain dead at the proper terminoligy)

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - Charlie Vick on 03/26/2004 13:30:37

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2004 : 18:30:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 I haven't ever read in any article or forum of anyone trying to use a loose-footed main on a modern sloop. What's the theory behind it? When would you use it and why?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Rich,

The adjustability of being able to really bag up the main to increase the draft and power of the sail is a LOT better if its loose footed.....since a foot rope limits how much the main can be eased.

If you ever sail under main alone (like before a race when you are stooging around in the starting area), you may have noticed how poor your performance is (at least it is for Confetti). However, if I bag up my main to something like a 4:1 camber ratio by easing off the outhaul about 18 inches, she sails a LOT better! It allowed me to build my main a LOT flatter than normal (which dramatically helps my pointing), but I can still return to a full main when I need it. Also, going downwind, easing the outhaul about 12-18 inches and pulling down hard on the boom vang really creates a faster sail...

Chuck

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Raskal
Navigator

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162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2004 : 18:20:28

Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I understand the idea--being able to bag the main more than when it's confined to the bolt rope track--but I'm having trouble picturing some of this:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> if I bag up my main to something like a 4:1 camber ratio by easing off the outhaul about 18 inches, she sails a LOT better! It allowed me to build my main a LOT flatter than normal (which dramatically helps my pointing), but I can still return to a full main when I need it<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

once you ease off the outhaul that much and get the main to bag, in what sense is it then "flat"? I thought a "flat" sail is what you get when the outhaul is very tight with little room for bagging?

I'm also not clear on what's happening with the loose foot--is it behaving like a jib with only the clew tight to the boom, or do you tie other parts of the foot down to not spill air from the bag? Do you make constant adjustments to the outhaul as you move the boom to or from the center line? Is there a point of sail this works best with?

If someone wanted to try this with a standard sail, will it work to remove the bolt rope from the track and let it hang loose, or will that not get the effect? (Chuck indicated not liking the bolt rope, but other than that how is the sail designed for this technique different than an ordinary main?)

This would be a good subject for a video, but short of that any detail you can fill in will be appreciated--

Rich K.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 09:44:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I understand the idea--being able to bag the main more than when it's confined to the bolt rope track--but I'm having trouble picturing some of this:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> if I bag up my main to something like a 4:1 camber ratio by easing off the outhaul about 18 inches, she sails a LOT better! It allowed me to build my main a LOT flatter than normal (which dramatically helps my pointing), but I can still return to a full main when I need it<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

once you ease off the outhaul that much and get the main to bag, in what sense is it then "flat"? I thought a "flat" sail is what you get when the outhaul is very tight with little room for bagging?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What Chuck is saying is that because of the greater adjustability of his loose-footed main, he can have the main constructed flatter which will give him better pointing ability to windward with the outhaul tensioned, but when sailing off the wind, his loose-footed main can compensate for the flatter made sail with the ability to really bulge when the outhaul is let out. This bulge provides for more lift in the same way that the flaps on a plane provide more lift at slow speeds (take off) and then are retracted (wing is made flatter) at faster cruising speeds.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 I'm also not clear on what's happening with the loose foot--is it behaving like a jib with only the clew tight to the boom, or do you tie other parts of the foot down to not spill air from the bag? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The "bag" in the sail is the fore and aft curve created when loosening the outhaul.

In the bottom part of the illustration, you can visualize what would happen if you were to ease the outhaul with both the tack and clew attached to the boom. As the clew slides towards the mast, the draft would increase (or bag out) and add more power. When the sail starts to get overpowered, you would then tighten the outhaul which would slide the clew away from the mast to remove some draft (make it less baggy) to depower the sail.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 Do you make constant adjustments to the outhaul as you move the boom to or from the center line? Is there a point of sail this works best with?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, you can make constant outhaul adjustments depending on conditions, but very generally you would want a flat sail in heavier winds to depower the sail and a bulgier sail in lighter winds to add power.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 If someone wanted to try this with a standard sail, will it work to remove the bolt rope from the track and let it hang loose, or will that not get the effect? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You can get the same effect by removing the boltrope from the track since very little support is given to the sail by it, but the clew of a loose-footed built main is reinforced a little more and will have a large slug or strap to hold it to the boom because the clew must remain on the boom to create the sail shape.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/01/2004 13:07:33

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 10:43:32

Nice explanation, Don ... thanks for taking the time to write it ... it certainly cleared up some things for me, and I'm sure lots of other people will benefit from reading it, too.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 10:58:55

I purchased a new loose-footed main last year and have been very happy with it thus far. When built, I had the loft (North Sails) add additonal roach, the max allowed under PHRF, which has also increased speed (in 1/10ths of knots)and upwind efficiency. Of course the drawback to this is class racing and the occasional light air hang-up on the back stay.

The second mod was an internal outhaul kit from Catalina Direct. Very slick! Everything was included including sheeves, line and wire, to do the job. The only problem I ran into was that the wire portion of the outhaul was about four inches too long and had to be shortend. It beats the heck out of the OEM rig and really compliments the adjustment capability of the loose-footed main.

Al Eckhart
GALLIVANT #5801

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 12:28:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 Nice explanation, Don ... thanks for taking the time to write it ... it certainly cleared up some things for me, and I'm sure lots of other people will benefit from reading it, too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're welcome, Buzz...Since I take so much out of this forum, I just thought I should earn my keep and put something back.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 16:44:43

Hey Al,
Why did you have to get the wire shortened? Was it because your sail was bigger than what is standard? Did Catalina Direct shorten it for you, or did you get it locally done? I'm considering the same kit when I buy an Ullman loose footed sail.

Hey Don,
You always earn your keep here

Thanks

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Raskal
Navigator

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162 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 18:33:58

Yes, Don and Chuck and others, thanks for your help and explanations. I think I get this now and have a useful new word--"bulgier"!

Rich K.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/01/2004 : 18:49:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 Yes, Don and Chuck and others, thanks for your help and explanations. I think I get this now and have a useful new word--"bulgier"!

Rich K.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just don't use that new word in public!

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:10:41

Frank,

Except for the additional roach, the sail was made to Catalina specs. The wire was just too long. A friend of mine had a micro press and made the repair for me.

One other thing you need to look out for. If you have a lot of stuff hanging off your boom, make sure the screws are not real long. With all the additional line and wire in there you may get some hang-ups.

Al Eckhart
GALLIVANT #5801

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cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2004 : 19:07:02

Rich K.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Slow to get back on the Sailor's Forum, good explaination Don!

"Bulgier".... hmmmm thats what my wife says my shape is becoming... Guess I match my main???? <grin>

Chuck

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