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Doug G.
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/18/2004 : 20:30:09

I tend to singlehand more than I originally expected. I am on a narrow Inland lake in Oklahoma and wave height and swells aren't the challenge. Variable swirling gusty winds are the norm for Spring. Weather service estimates seem to report the low end of a wide range. I expect conditions may be similar for the Austin area sailors.
I have tried several combinations of 'Less Canvas'. I have one reef on the original main, and a new stiff 110 jib. What's the relative diferrence in sailng: Main only, main only reefed, or 110 only. I tried all 3 variations 2 weekends ago. But the gusts were so variable that I couldn't get more than 5 min. feel for each. That's when 'she who must be obeyed' voted for the outboard and early docking. I need to improve or my Admiral will return to her Economic stimulation mode.

Doug G.,83SRSK C25, #3767,Pelican.
Grand Lake,OK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2004 : 21:21:58

I think an 80% head sail and a reefed main are enough reduction for a midwestern lake. I did not go out today because we were gusting into the 40s. Sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor. One thing you might also consider in high winds if it is possible... don't beat, don't run; reach out, reach back, repeat.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2004 : 10:37:46

Hi Doug,

When reducing sail area for strong wind conditions, it is important to remember that you should try hard to balance the pressure fore/aft in the sail plan. Going with just a mainsail OR just a jib takes the sail plan out of balance. Our C25s like balance with both a jib and a main up for breezy days. For really strong breezes, a storm jib or ~75% jib with reefed main usually balances nicely. Less heeling, much reduced weather helm, good movement forward through the water.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2004 : 11:16:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I did not go out today because we were gusting into the 40s. Sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor. One thing you might also consider in high winds if it is possible... don't beat, don't run; reach out, reach back, repeat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Friday with reefed main and 110%: 3 very tough hours windward in 20-25 gusting to 30 and 1 hour running back.
Saturday with reefed main and 80%: 5 much more enjoyable hours reaching in 25-30 gusting to 35.
Sunday: 8 very enjoyable hours reading in 25-35 gusting to 45 and fetching the length of the lake to produce a short frequency two foot swell with white caps.

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

Hi Doug, you are voicing the third most common complaint about sailing on Grand Lake. The best sailing (i.e., steady wind) is on the approach or departure of a front. Unfortunately(?), those also happen to generally be the small craft advisory days. During, the rest of the time (especially late June through September) the wind is very inconsistent to non-existent (second most common complaint). A big part of the problem resides in the steep cliffs that exist all around the lake.

Many people aren't rigged for big air (i.e., reefing, storm jib, backstay adjuster, cockpit lines, etc.), aren't comfortable with big air or don't enjoy the amount of hard work associated with big air; so they don't sail on those days. Just as many people (perhaps the same people) aren't rigged for light air, aren't comfortable with the heat or don't enjoy the not-getting-anywhere aspect of light air sailing; so they don't sail on those days either. After two and a half years on Grand, I've noticed that "perfect" conditions line up with weekends about four times per year and, therefore, those people actually sail four times per year. Some use their sailboats like motorboats the rest of the time and some just use their sailboats as little cabins. To each their own, it's all good.

Night sailing is a very good way to increase the number of "perfect" sailing opportunities. My friends and I generally sail every Wednesday or Thursday night through summer, depending on conditions, but the wind on the lake seems to be much more consistent in the evenings.

BTW, the number one complaint is the short frequency three and four foot swells created by the huge cabin cruisers in the summer.

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2004 : 19:23:09

Doug,

Its gotta be tough when its that variable.

At least on SF Bay, we kind of know where it changes.

Coming south from Angel Island, the lee side, you usually have to motor. After you come around the corner, between AI and Treasure Island, on a summer day it might blow 25-30, gusts to 40. We get the big swells in this stretch too, blowing directly in from the Pacific, thru the GG. They call it hurricane gultch. So usually I am reefed on the main, sometimes double, to keep the weather helm in control, and have the roller furler pulled in to about 100%. It's about six miles across there.

When you get in the lee of Pier 39, alongside the Embarcadero, sometimes you have to motor all the way under the Bay Bridge, past the ballpark, before you start to pick up enough wind to sail. That is about a mile.

It is usually variable down to Hunter's Point, because of all the buildings and hills, but generally enough wind to shake out the reefs and get hull speed. This is about 5 miles.

Between HP and our marina at Brisbane, 3.5 mi., there is a big saddle in the hills and you can get the full blast from the NW. Sometimes I have to reef again. But a mile before the marina entrance, you go into the lee of San Bruno Mtn. We generally start putting everything away and motor.

Funny thing is that the channel up to the marina is on the other side of the lee, and we get chop and spray the last mile up the channel.

Bottom line is learn to quickly reef in all conditions and when it is flukey keep a hand on the mainsheet.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958 (and now Love Me Tender 7.5)
SF Bay

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 14:31:23

I would like to add one additional point to the discussion on high winds. Control of sail shape can have and effect on sail power. in addition to reef you can move the jib car aft and produce a flatter jib and likewise more outhaul and cunningham pressure will flatten the main. these changes will de-power the sails, and conversly when you move the jib car forward for lighter wind that will allow more camber and a resulting increase in lift. the good old bernouli effect. when a stream of air moves faster over one side of a surface than the other there is a drop in presure on the curved side resulting in lift. More curve more lift less curve less lift.....
this relates to wind speed like wing shape relates to aircraft type.
Cessna 150 lots of curve, F16 a lot less curve.

both the cunningham and outhaul on my main use a 3/1 advantage allowing me to put in a lot of flattning force.

I know oscar and gloss are in the flying business and I'm not trying to be an expert on the flying side of things with my few hundred hours in a Cessna but a lot of what we learn in sailing relates in many ways to flying.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 15:40:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...a lot of what we learn in sailing relates in many ways to flying.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah, if the Wright brothers had been sailors, they would have figured it all out a lot quicker.

Edited by - on

Back-Into-Sailing
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 23:08:07

the varying wind conditions here in central Texas are why I installed roller furling. I went out the other day by myself with a nice 12-15 winds. Halfway up the lake the winds started getting stronger and stronger. As the wind picked up more and more, I simply took in more sail on the furler. This also had the effect of moving the cars back and flattening the jib. It was still work, but much more managable and safer than running up front to change sails. When I got back to the dock and listened to the weather radio I found that the winds were 31, gusting to 38! Being able to make these adjustments from the cockpit make the whole family feel much safer.

Edited by - on

dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 09:14:01

Preface - I have NEVER raced my C-25, (though I take her out in any safe conditions) so you veteran 25 sailors may take issue with some of this . . . .

I actually learned to sail on Grand Lake. 1st boat I owned, I sailed on Keystone. . . in the last 30 years I've sailed primarily small centerboard boats - lot's of racing on small lakes where wind shifts can be sudden, severe and frequent.

On a centerboarder, in high winds, in race conditions . . . you seldom shorten sail BUT you MUST keep the boat flat if you want to cross the line in the lead. Keel boats like to heel a bit but they also go best when they're 'on their lines'. Just like a small boat, they'll tell you when they're happy. If you're showing too much bottom then the boat is slipping to leward and loosing speed . . . feels thrilling but the boat doesn't like it . . . you can feel it in the helm and the heel.

Buddy Melges writes that the single most important element to successful racing is keeping the boat on her lines. Your ability to do that is VERY important to the comfort and enjoyment of your passengers. If I'm taking a 'newbie' guest out, or sailing a boat I don't yet know, I may reef at the dock . . . COMFORT FIRST. If I'm thrill seeking then I take out my 14' planning hull centerboarder and get a workout. So here's what I suggest:

1. Shorten sail early - good reefing gear (a topping lift is a MUST) and technique is very important . . . I occasionally end a leisurly, light wind sail by reefing - just so my crew and I can go through the motions.

2. Watch the water - 'Oh black water - keep on rollin' - the willawas (cat's paws) will tell you where the gusts are.

3. On a beat - HEAD UP in anticipation of the pressure build of a gust and don't be afraid to carry a luff in the sails - as long as you keep the boat on her lines you aren't loosing speed or suffering excessive slide to leward . . . In high, shifty, gusting winds, pinching into the wind and luffing the headsail is the easiest, fastest way to keep the boat flat and the passengers relaxed . . . I'll usually announce something like . . "Hey! This could be a little thrilling" when I see the puff and head into it. The sails shake a little and the noise level rises, but the boat stays on her feet and the passengers think it's cool . . . (all of this is accompanied by a little spiel about the physics of sailing and the fact that keel boats don't capsize - they tilt until the rudder comes out of the water then they round up into the wind . . . I have come head to wind and stopped the boat just show people that I can stop at any time I wish . . . when you get on a roller coaster, you give up control - not so on a boat.

4. DON'T sail dead downwind in shifty, gusty conditions if you're not completely comfortable handling the boat - broad reach at most. The accidental gybe is the WORST thing you can do . . . upwind seems more thrilling but off the wind is where the real danger lies. Tack from reach to reach and use the engine to get back in when the time comes.

5. It doesn't matter how bad the conditions are - you must remain calm and have a smile on your face . . . if you tense up then your rookie crew or newbie passengers will panic!

Have fun, take it easy, stay sober, keep her on her lines!

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 12:45:36

David. I race....you gave dang good advice! I like your philosophy.

Gary B.
Commodore of Vice
s/v Encore! # 685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

skipn809
Navigator

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111 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 13:27:30

Doug, it sounds to me like you already know what to do when the "heel and squeel" factor is exceeded by the wind. You motor to keep the boss happy.

I almost learned this too late on a C22 with my wife on a lake with similar conditions as yours. So, I moved up to a O'day 28, and took her with me and the owner on the "sea trial" which happened to be a 25- 30 mph day. Once she found out the boat would not turn over but rounds up, she lost all fear. Maybe because she trusted the other guy at the wheel. This was good because she consented to buying the boat. That was bad because we now owned two boats.

Anyway, I put her on the wheel and she found she could still handle things, and after that she has never been happy unless the boat is "tilted". She is not much on nautical terms, but she can still handle a boat. (She is on the helm in my signature photo, and we have a reefed main and jib in 25 plus winds. Conditions got too bad, so we called it a day along with the Hunter 30 making the photo. I got a second set of reef points in the main this week.)

Now when company (non-sailors) get nervous, I put my wife on the tiller while I handle the sheets, and everybody is happy even tho' she sails like I do-- "tilted".

Those night sails are the deal breaker. I never have trouble getting her or others out then because of the lighter wind, no other boats, no heat, and peace and quiet.

As for reefing, when I am lazy I fly the 135 only. I have a tall rig, and I hardly ever go with the main only. I have when I have really been lazy and didn't want to mess with jib sheets. Usually I will reef the main first and then the roller jib when the wind picks up. I have tried it with a reefed main only on a really windy day, but the winds were so gusty we finally gave it up, and coved out.

So, I think if your lake is as variable as mine, you can try just about anything and no combination will be the best, and no combination will be the worst. Some will be a little better than others. Dittos to dhunt's advice, and try sticking the wife on the tiller with smaller sails. She may really get into "tilting" once she sees she can do no harm.

Good luck.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 17:40:53

Doug,

Anticipating sailing on Lake Superior,one of the first things I got for my boat was a 60% working jib of 7.5 ounce dacron - basically an over-sized storm jib. When the wind kicks up to 25, 30, 35 mph I usually have the main reefed and this sail hanked on. It works great and keeps the boat flat with the usual precautions. When I purchased a new main last year however, I had an additonal reef point put in. I plan on cruising more in the coming years and you need it on this lake. I'll still use the working jib though. It's a great additon to your sail inventory. Your wife will like it too.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 00:35:09

I would add three things to all the wisdom dispensed above:

1) It is infinitely easier to sail in high winds with new sails than with old, stretched out sails. Not only can you get them flatter, but most newer C25 mainsails have two reef points, not just one, as did the originals.

2) Single-handing I always throw in the first reef at 15 knots. If I have four or five buddies aboard that I can throw on the windward rail, I might wait until the wind hits a steady 20-23 knots.

3) Sometimes I reef in ten knots to slow the boat down when the swells are particularly close or steep. It makes for a slower, but more comfortable ride.

Finally, don't allow yourself to be drawn into the "machismo" of not reefing. Where I sail there are lots of full keel sailboats that don't need to reef until the wind hits 25 knots. Even so, too many sailors take too much delight in scaring their crew, or seem to think it isn't really macho to reef early.

A bent mast usually changes their mind tho' sooner or later.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 00:43:32

Question: You guys talking about all this wind MUST be talking about apparent wind, over the bow, right???? There is a HUGE difference that isn't often mentioned here. 18 to 20 knots TRUE is a LOT of wind for my standard rig. I just about HAVE to be reefed at that point, with the 80 or 100% jib. But the wind over the bow will be reading 25 or so when I am going into it at 6 knots or so.....I would love to know when wind speeds you are talking about are TRUE or APPARENT....Thanks..

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 12:24:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">don't allow yourself to be drawn into the "machismo" of not reefing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's a great point. But for me, at first, I don't think it was machismo. I delayed reefing simply because I wasn't experienced enough to know that delaying reefing just made it harder and I wasn't convinced that it would make sailing more comfortable with little or no loss of speed. Also, I kept using the "maybe I don't need it yet" excuse. Then I heard the "reef when you first think about it" rule. I'd be out there, winds would build and I "would think about it"; but I wouldn't reef immediately. When I eventually reefed, I reflected that it would have been better had I reefed, for example, 30 minutes ago. After going through this "delay and reflection" exercise a few times, I finally tried to focus on it and literally follow the rule. Now, I'm much better at reefing "when I first think about it" and reflecting each time about it tells me that the rule sounds stupid, but I'm amazed at how often it works (and rarely is it wrong, in which case it's easy to take the reef out and continue on).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">are talking about are TRUE or APPARENT<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A good question. And what are members using to measure them?

It seems a lot of folks estimate figures without instruments on board which vary significantly from boat to boat on the same water. Maybe I'm overly skeptical about this, but I don't put a lot of faith in wind speed estimates of true wind other than general ones (i.e. light, moderate, strong, etc.) because wind speed estimates may have more to do with the estimator's general tolerance (including mine), which vary from person to person and can change over time. Also, aren't boat speed and angle off the wind related to apparent wind?

Sorry to ramble on, but maybe another's perspective is helpful.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:00:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 It seems a lot of folks estimate figures without instruments on board which vary significantly from boat to boat on the same water. Maybe I'm overly skeptical about this, but I don't put a lot of faith in wind speed estimates of true wind other than general ones (i.e. light, moderate, strong, etc.) because wind speed estimates may have more to do with the estimator's general tolerance (including mine), which vary from person to person and can change over time. Also, aren't boat speed and angle off the wind related to apparent wind?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree...when I give numbers for wind estimates, I do so using figures from the weather radio, but you are correct when you say that different people have different opinions for wind...One man's 15 knots is another's 25 knots...or in the case of my Admiral, 35!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:17:04

Funny about that machismo of not reefing. Often, on big wind days, I am the only boat sailing around MB with a reef in (Fleet 7 members excepted). Of course, often, I am the only boat sailing around MB period.

I love being reefed, with the small jib, and passing the bigger 30+ footers - who are laying on their ears - or motoring with no jib and the main sheeted in all the way. I am sitting in my cockpit having fun, not rounding up, and busy tacking and gybing away.

I think showing them all some skill with the boat is a lot more machismo than how far it can heel and round up out of control.

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