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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Jib Sheet Cleat

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/21/2004 : 13:32:34

I just ordered a set of 3 3/4" ClamCleats from Catalina Direct, which will be the third set used on Panacea, and I was wondering what was the original cleat used by Catalina or were different ones used on different models?

CVick
PnaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 14:10:57

Hi Charlie,
My 77 #153 early out of the mold, came with standard deck cleats. I removed them and replaced them with harken cam cleats. When mounted directly on the deck aft of the winch there is a tendancy for the winch pressure to pull upward causing an unwanted release. This season I re-popsitioned the cleats on 1.5 in teak blocks to insure that the pull was direct and not at an upward angle. I havn't sailed with them yet but I'm sure that they will be an improvement. I made my blocks but you can find them in many sailing catalogues. If you make your own be sure you make the base of the block a little wider than the top as there will now be a slight lever if the cleat is not secured firmly.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 21:04:44

Hi Charlie,

As per John V, cam cleats are the way to go. Harken also has plastic risers to position the cam cleats at the correct height.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 21:54:13

I have had both cams and clams. I prefer clams for our boats. I got the racing (metal) version and the hold a little too well, I think the plastics are better.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 23:38:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 I just ordered a set of 3 3/4" ClamCleats from Catalina Direct, which will be the third set used on Panacea, and I was wondering what was the original cleat used by Catalina or were different ones used on different models?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I believe my boat has the original cleats for the jib sheets and I haven't had any problems with them. When sailing, I put four turns on the winch and then make one full round turn on the cleat, no criss-crossing or cleat hitches, just once around the base. The single round turn is enough to hold the sheet since the turns on the winch are providing the holding power.

I know racers will say that the cleats are terrible, but I haven't figured out why yet. Before tacking, I hold the working jib sheet in my hand and spin it off the winch at the appropriate time during the tack. After tacking and the new working jib sheet has been adjusted, I just spin a single turn on the cleat and give it a gentle tug. No muss, no fuss.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/21/2004 23:47:35

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 10:23:08

"I know racers will say that the (horn) cleats are terrible, but I haven't figured out why yet."
Several reasons come to mind, Don.
1. They are damned uncomfortable to sit on when hiking .
2. Much slower to uncleat than a cam cleat.
3. It's easy for the jib sheets to hang up on the horns.
As for clam cleats, they were the first items I threw overboard after getting the boat. Far too often they will grab and hang up the jib sheet while you are tacking. I don't know of one racer on our lake who has anything but cam cleats.

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 11:02:53

I use clam cleats on my boat to cleat the jib sheets. They are very quick and easy to set and release. The only drawback is that the plastic ones need to be replaced every 2-3 years, because they lose their grip, but they're not expensive. About 3 years ago I installed aluminum clam cleats, and they have performed and lasted very well.

Clam cleats don't grip as firmly as cam cleats. When tacking, I put two wraps on the winch, and take in the sheet as fast as possible. In strong winds, after I have pulled in the sheet as much as I can by hand, I put one to three additional wraps on the winch, to keep the clam cleat from slipping, and then insert the winch handle and use it to fine-trim the jib. When tacking singlehanded, I can flip the sheet out of the clam and unwrap the winch with one hand, haul in the sheet on the other side, and just lay it in the other clam and it will grip. When racing, I constantly trim and re-trim the jib sheet with every puff and lull. If I want to play the jibsheet out, it is easy to uncleat it with one hand, no matter how strong the wind, keeping the other hand free to steer the boat. To bring the jibsheet in tighter in strong wind, I can tail the sheet with one hand, crank the winch handle with the other, and steer briefly with my knee.

It is so easy to uncleat a clam cleat that you can do it inadvertently just by kicking or bumping the end of the sheet, but you learn not to do that, and it is seldom a problem. Also, when you first start using clam cleats, sometimes the sheet falls onto the cleat and snags, but you learn how to position the sheet so that it doesn't snag.

The conventional wisdom is to never cleat a sheet in heavy weather or while racing, but, if you are caught in heavy weather, and cruising or racing for many hours, you have to cleat the sheets to avoid becoming exhausted. It's o.k. to cleat the sheets, as long as the type of cleat you are using enables you to release them instantly, if necessary.

Personally, I prefer clams to cams, but, if you're going to use cam cleats, be sure you get high-load cam cleats. Harkin makes a good high-load ball bearing cam cleat, and they are expensive, but they work well.

If you don't use good, high-load cam cleats, it is often difficult to cleat the sheet in strong winds. First, you have to take up all the slack in the sheet, then lay it in the cleat, and then pull it in another inch or so to force the jaws of the cam cleat to open and grab the sheet. Sometimes you need the winch handle to pull the sheet in that extra inch. With a clam cleat, you take up the slack in the sheet, and lay it in the clam, and it grabs the sheet immediately.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 11:31:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 . . . The only drawback is that the plastic ones need to be replaced every 2-3 years, because they lose their grip . . .

Actually Ronstan makes their cam cleats out of a composite material, I've had mine for 5 trouble-free seasons.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 12:25:46

Steve - I guess it's the old saying: "different strokes for different folks"

OJ - I switched from Harken cams to Ronstan about 3 years ago - they do seem to hold up better than the Harken's and they are cheaper

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 13:40:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby

. . . The only drawback is that the plastic ones need to be replaced every 2-3 years, because they lose their grip . . .

Actually Ronstan makes their cam cleats out of a composite material, I've had mine for 5 trouble-free seasons. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> OJ, in the above comment, I was talking about clam cleats, not cam cleats.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I was wondering what was the original cleat used by Catalina or were different ones used on different models?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't think we ever answered Charlie's original question. C-25s originally came with only the horn cleats for the jibsheets. The cams and clams were all installed by the owners.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 16:07:34

Is line chafe an issue with either the cam or clam cleats?

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 21:53:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Is line chafe an issue with either the cam or clam cleats?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One of the benefits Harken and Ronstan always claim is how gentle their cam cleats are on sheets . . . makes me think I'm reading about laundry softener! I've never had an issue with sheet chafing with cam cleats - and I squeeze ever last arc second

I can out of my sails.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 09:25:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is line chafe an issue with either the cam or clam cleats?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Some of the cheaper cam cleats have sharp teeth and edges that seem like they would be hard on line, but the better brand name cam cleats don't look like they would be a problem. Clam cleats don't really grip the line all that tightly. In strong winds, you have to put an extra wrap or two around the winch to increase the friction, so the cleats will hold. Actually, it would probably be good practice to do the same with cam cleats. The winches can take all the load you can put on them. There's no good reason to transfer all the load to the cleats.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 10:03:11

Personally my clam cleats held fine with only two wraps on the winch until they started wearing out then I would have to pound the sheet down at the front side of the cleat to get it to hold. To me though the ease of release from a clam is worth more to me than ease of setting especially in higher winds singlehanding, but to each his own.
As far as line chafe it seems the composite clams wear out before the sheets do!

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 11:59:14

On a previous boat, I had occasional problems with a sheet finding its way into a clam cleat at just the wrong time, preventing it from playing out during a tack. Cams won't let that happen... But a cam can be difficult to set under high tension without cranking the winch another notch as you set the line into the cleat. (Never succumb to the temptation to open the jaws with your finger as you set the line!) The newer cams, with rounded tops on the jaws, seem to release more easily than the older designs. I don't know whether they set more easily with just a downward pull on the sheet, or whether they still need a little winch.

With either the cam or clam, getting the right vertical angle to the winch is critical--some sort of wedge is needed. I looked at some of the plastic risers for cams, and seriously wonder about whether they're strong enough to handle the load of a sheet that may not have enough wraps on the winch. Perhaps the deck core does most of the work to hold the bolts in place.

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 12:19:54

My clams are flush mounted to the deck with no risers which I've had no problem with until a couple of months ago when they started wearing out but I'm thinking maybe they would work a lot better if they were on some sort of riser similar to Frank's.
I'l have to wait to try though, the ones CD just sent me are 3 3/4" overall and I ordered 3 3/4" center to center. The packing slip said "Longer cleats for same sized line used on early boats no longer made. These are the closest replacement available."
Looks like I'll be pounding my sheets again this weekend.
The new tiller is gorgeous though.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 12:37:06

Dave - on "TSU" we have upgraded to 2-speed winches (I think they are 16's) and I had to put 2 plastic risers under the cam cleats to get a fair lead. They have not presented any problems at all, and most of the time we only have 2 wraps on the winch. (It was a problem though finding SS bolts long enough...)
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 16:30:58

Charlie
Mine are the Sea Dog CL 220 Racing Major
I bought them from Sailnet last Sep, I just searched Sailnet for them and got nada. I paid $15.05 ea.

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