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full battens or not

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/22/2004 : 09:41:05

Friends:

I'm about to order a new main -- probably from Scott Sails, because Jim Scott owns the marina where "Even Chance" is docked, his prices are competitive, he makes sails for Dennis Conner (!), and it will have to be a custom size to accomodate the bimini I'm installing on my TR (pictures when it's all done -- the mainsheet traveler is already relocated to just behind the companionway. The local PHRF guru says he wouldn't handicap the boat at all for the relocation, which makes no difference since I don't race but some of you will wonder about that issue.).

It seems to me that many of you love four full battens. Another sailmaker (David Baxter in Norfolk) told me several years ago to get full battens because they would make the sail last longer. Jim Scott advises against it (he'll do full battens if I desire), because he says the battens compromise adjusting sail shape, especially on a loose foot main. His recommendation is a full batten at the top, but three partials below that.

Those of you with full battens, what are your experience and suggestions?

Thanks!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 04/22/2004 09:45:05

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 12:41:46

"he says the battens compromise adjusting sail shape, especially on a loose foot main."
Brooke - I have no experience with a loose-footed main, but have never experienced any problem adjusting sail shape on a "regular" main with 4 full battens. The one outstanding feature I've found with the full battens is, that when you are luff-driving the boat, the lower batten maintains a taut triangular area of the main which maintains drive to weather. It's almost like throwing in a temporary reef!
I'd be interested in the opinions of those who do have loose-footed mains (if I do get to the Nationals next year I'll be needing a new one!)
Derek

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 15:31:45

? Don't you think with all his experiance that he might be right. He also would know one hell of a lot more than most here.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 17:00:10

I bought a loose-footed main from North Sails last year.I ordered it with a full roach - or as near full as PHRF will allow. North advised at least one full batten at the top for this application, mainly to support the larger roach. Unless your going for the larger roach or putting in four full battens I would go with the standard batten pattern, particularly if your not racing. The sail will be less expensive and be easier to handle.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 17:56:58

Doug - normally I would believe a sailmaker, particularly if he races! However, I was speaking from my own experience.
Derek

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 20:20:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Don't you think with all his experiance that he might be right. He also would know one hell of a lot more than most here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course "he" might be right. But two respected sailmakers (i.e., two "he's") have given me utterly conflicting information. This might be as much a matter of preference and taste as being "right." I'm simply trying to get all the data I can before spending a thousand dollars.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 04/23/2004 07:25:48

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 21:30:06

I'd say both sail makers are right. Before I bought my main last fall we all had this discussion and the consensus of everyone was it depended on what you are after. There is no way a full batten sail can be adjusted as broadly as a standard batten lower section sail. Big roaches need at least one full batten or a radial pattern of battens a'la sailboard sails. I sail in predominantly moderate to heavy wind, so I do not need the ability to "bag out" my main in light air so I opted for the durability, quietness, and convenience of the full batten main. If I were racing a lot in moderate to light air I would have opted for the "power head" type of sail with the standard lower battens. As with all captain decisions the final call is yours based on what you see as the need of your boat.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2004 : 22:16:48

Brooke,

For what it's worth . . . the only thing I didn't care for on my full batten main (on my C-22) was the top batten always rubbed the backstay. On light wind days I had to smack (term?) the main sail to get the top batten to cross over

. I would question the benefit of having only the top batten a full batten.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 06:17:48

Hey Derek,
what do you mean by "luff driving" the boat.
You seem to come up with many new things for us to learn
Thanks for the education

Back when I used to do a lot of windsurfing, all my sails were full batten, and I had no trouble adjusting outhaul, or downhaul, I guesse in sailing we have different terms for downhaul. Like cunningham or luff tension, right?

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 07:32:35

OJ, evidently your C-22 sail had more roach than my factory C-25 main does: the leech on my main is utterly straight and never contacts the backstay. I haven't discussed roach with Jim Scott, but will. I can certainly understand that issue, and I would think that chafe would wear the sail out at that spot.

Brooke

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 08:58:41

I have a larger roach on my newer UK main and at first, the top full batten would ocassionally hang up on the backstay, which would require me to pull on the backstay while flopping the boom back and forth. To lessen the problem, I don't raise the main all the way up the mast, but instead leave it four or so inches lower so the roach will better clear under the backstay.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 10:22:48

Frank - one way to deal with gusty conditions when going to weather,(i.e. where the wind suddenly increases but you know it's only a temporary condition) is to ease the main about 4" - 6". This rapidly depowers it, but causes the front part of the main to luff. Without full battens, the whole sail tends to luff, which, if you are racing is not a good thing! The full battens maintain that driving triangle in the aft bottom section of the sail. As soon as the gust passes you trim in the main again. It's an option you can use instead of just feathering up to weather.
Derek

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 10:46:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Frank - one way to deal with gusty conditions when going to weather,(i.e. where the wind suddenly increases but you know it's only a temporary condition) is to ease the main about 4" - 6". This rapidly depowers it, but causes the front part of the main to luff. Without full battens, the whole sail tends to luff, which, if you are racing is not a good thing! The full battens maintain that driving triangle in the aft bottom section of the sail. As soon as the gust passes you trim in the main again. It's an option you can use instead of just feathering up to weather.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That was an option I didn't have until I got a full batten main and its like you said before, its like thowing up a temporary reef.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 17:05:11

Here's my two cents....indeed for me the "temporary reef" is a long standing tradition, I know it as the "farmers reef". With the full battens it sits nicely, and holds a consistent shape.

I currently don't race so I'm not too concerned with micro adjusting my sails...(IMHO much of that is a placebo effect anyways. I believe races are won by focusing, and by not making mistakes)

As far as cruising, I have sailed with both, and find the full batten main much easier to deal with, and do believe that it will last longer.

Oscar, on the road.

Edited by - Oscar on 04/23/2004 17:06:49

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 17:08:32

Another trick is to haul the traveler as far to weather as possible, loosen the boom vang and the the top of the sail will spill the highest wind while the bottom of the sail still drives you, this is a very high wind trick and best when close reaching. In normal high wind with blasters I am a pincher (featherer) rather than a spiller. We seldom get the rouge 90% smacks that other areas can have so pinching seldom gets you knocked down.

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 17:51:36

For what it's worth I was just reading Hal Roth's After 50,000 miles. where he advocates using battenless sails for cruising. 99% of C25 cruisers will not need to worry about the safety factors he discussed and a lot of us will want sails that work for the occasional race, but it was interesting to read the dissenting view. His main points were that battened sails were designed for racing, wear out the sails quickly, get hung up on shrouds during tacks, and make more trouble than they gain speed (for a cruiser).

I would be curious to hear what opinions people have on battenless sails--especially in relation to a loose-footed main. I can imagine that a couple of vertical upper battens might be very effective with that, where with a full fan of four the 2 lowers might be on a bad angle...

Rich Kokoska

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 19:38:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Another trick is to haul the traveler as far to weather as possible<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No such animule on the WB....

Oscar, on the road.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 23:04:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 For what it's worth I was just reading Hal Roth's After 50,000 miles. where he advocates using battenless sails for cruising. Rich Kokoska
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
How accurate is your quote? Battenless are for furling mains that stow away in the mast. A reasonable compromise on a boat over 45' but a real performance hit. Did he mean traditional partial batten sails? Also, I am a day/weekend sailor not a cruiser, I assume cruisers are people that transit from port to port. I can see how they would have different priorities.
My full batten main trims out nicely and is very forgiving because of the full battens. Who wants a sail older than 5 years anyway?

Of course I'll probably use mine 10, but I will want a new one after 5.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 06:52:59

I have a personal bias about Hal Roth. He's written two non-sailing books called "You Can't Ever Get to Puckum" and "You Still Can't Get to Puckum." Puckum, according to Roth, is a place on the Eastern Shore of Maryland that's either just up ahead on the road, or just behind you. I own a 340 acre farm in Dorchester County for which the northern boundary is Puckum Branch, and the western boundary is Puckum Road. I have wanted to call Mr. Roth and offer to show him exactly where Puckum is.

What that has to do with sailing is beyond me, but this forum has been known to digress in the past.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 04/24/2004 06:54:46

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 10:31:17

It's been quite a while since I read some of their stuff, but I seem to recall the Pardey's are big proponants of battenless sails.

Regardless, I like my main with full battens and a loose-foot (which I converted it to after purchase).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 21:34:11

The Pardeys are concerned with reliability in the middle of the Pacific, not winning a race around the buoys. Battens have been used with in-mast furlers--they're vertical.

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frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 22:59:14

There's always something for everybody. It's just what suits your needs that's important. My previous boat had a battenless main with a roller reefing boom which I thoroughly loved and used constantly. The main also did not use sail slugs(slides) but rather the boltrope itself went into the slot on the mast. I never had any problems with this setup. Also, instead of a topping lift, there was a pigtail on the backstay.

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 18:04:38

Frogger's experiences are interesting, and I think everyone else is probably right that these people writing about the battenless mains are cruising on a bigger level than we would. Roth didn't have a furling main and here are some of his remarks:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sailmakers agree that battens and batten pockets are their biggest repair items. Battens exist only as rule-cheating devices to gain unmeasured area for racing anyway, or, more rarely, for use in high aspect ratio staysails or narrow jibs with nervous leeches. (p.227)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you want a mainsail without battens, the leech of the sail will have to be cut with a hollow in it. This makes the headboard superfluous, and the battenless mainsail will then be very much like a genoa. I think you will find that the slightly reduced area is of little consequence and that freedom from the expense and trouble of battens and batten pockets is a big gain. Also, it is easier to hoist a mainsail without battens, which may jam behind a lower shroud if it is inconvenient or impossible to head into the wind. (p.226)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 23:30:22

... and ferro concrete is the best hull material. What ever! If someone were really considering a battenless mainsail they might as well just buy 20 year old used ones and throw the battens away. 1 bu each and disposable. Sorry if I sound harsh but this is just silly.

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