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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Whisker pole limited to J measurement

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/05/2004 : 22:31:10

The recent discussion of whisker poles sent me back to the PHRF-NE rules for a look at the measurement rules. PHRF-NE, our sanctioning body, states that the whisker pole is assumed not to exceed the J measurement.

I alwasy thought - and recent threads seem to back this up - that the whiskerpole is most efficient when set to the length of the foot of the headsail.

Do any of you race in fleets that limit the pole size to J? I can't imagine its worth declaring a penalty pole and getting my ratings changed. Do any of you disagree?

Justin

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2004 : 22:48:54

Whisker pole or spinnaker?

A spinnaker pole is the size of a boats J dimension.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 00:00:59

Don is quite correct. A spinnaker pole is strictly limited in length by the boats J measurement (from the stem fitting to the base of the mast at deck level). A whisker pole's length is only limited by any class rules prevalent, but is usually the length of the foot of the headsail.
Derek

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takokichi
Captain

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321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 11:55:15

I thought the whisker pole was limited only by class rules, too, but:

The base boat is assumed to in as-built configuration with a 150% genoa, a spinnaker/whisker pole length equal to J, a spinnaker width equal to 1.8 times J, a spinnaker height equal to .95 times the square root of I squared plus J squared, and either a folding or feathering propeller on an exposed shaft, a two bladed solid propeller in an aperture, or an outboard motor. IMS sail definitions apply, particularly with respect to mainsail girths. Sprit boats will be handicapped in the configuration shown on the application.

That came from PHRF-NE's website.

So I guess its unusual.

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 12:29:59

Hi Justin,

The last time I looked at PHRF rules for whisker poles it said that for jibs smaller than 1.25 "J" the max pole length was = to "J". For jibs larger than 1.25 "J" the max pole length was = to (0.8)(LP). The longest LP allowed for a C25 jib is 16' 3.25". Max whisker pole for PHRF should be ~13'.

However, the C25 class rules define max whisker pole length to be equal to LP for class racing.....or 16' 3.25".

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 15:29:44

OK - so who prevails, National PHRF or the region I sail in? Its clear PHFR-NE expects my whisker pole to be no more than J. And I think its equally clear the national PHRF rules let you go to class maximum.

Anyone know where it says who the ultimate arbitor is as between national and regional levels?

Justin

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 17:44:20

Justin - I've just checked the US Sailing PHRF Handbook. In their rating assumptions they do specify size of spinnaker poles - but nowhere do they mention whisker poles. It is my belief that the local PHRF Committees are autonomous, hence the multitude of fleets reporting their own ratings. I think that the National PHRF is really just a "clearing house" for the information.
Does anyone know what the PHRF of Southern California says about whisker poles? They started the whole concept in the late '40's.
Derek
P.S. I can't believe that any PHRF Committee would expect you to use a 10' whisker pole on anything but a 100% jib - on a 155% it would be worse than useless!

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tzk53s
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2004 : 17:56:20

My fleet also uses the 'J' measurement rule. Remember that everyone must go by the same rule so taking an advantage really is not necessary. I am part of the Great Lakes racing group and a member at the Port Huron Yacht Club. This is my first year. I was assigned a rating of 220 for my swing keel 25. What is the rating in your org?

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Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2004 : 08:06:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by takokichi
 OK - so who prevails, National PHRF or the region I sail in? Its clear PHFR-NE expects my whisker pole to be no more than J. And I think its equally clear the national PHRF rules let you go to class maximum.

Anyone know where it says who the ultimate arbitor is as between national and regional levels?

Justin
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It all depends on how the Sailing Instructions are written. Rule number one in your SI's should dictate what rules are being used and what rules take precendence.

In most cases, the rules would state, "this race is being sailed under the RR of Sailing, 2001-2004 and PHRF-insert Location here and the one design class rules of (if and when applicable insert class name here.) In the event of a conflict, the one design class rules shall take precendence."

DW

Edited by - Champipple on 05/07/2004 15:42:57

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2004 : 16:38:08

Well - I just looked at the SI's for the races we plan to do. At least one states that cruising class boats may use a pole no longer than J.

Stikes me the right way to use a pole that short with a larger headsail is as a really long barber-outhauler.

Justin

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ahoyther
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 11:32:58

Hi all,

I'm a C-27 owner and the discussion amongst our group recently has been this same question: whisker poles not to exceed the J dimension. I contacted our PHRF-NE handicapper, John Collins as I am considering adding the Forespare LC 10-18 whisker pole that is recommended for the Catalina 27 (heavy air). He has come back to me indicating the penalty would be (at least) six seconds. So, I believe you can probably carry a whisker pole exceeding the J dimension, recommended to be the same extention as the foot of the sail, with the six second adjustment.

Dave Hoy
WYANOKE #6295
Camden, Maine

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 12:08:35

IMHO the NE-PHRF needs to rethink this. To have a spinnaker pole limited to the "J" is reasonable (it stops somewhat unethical racers from letting the chute go way out in front of the boat , thus gaining an advantage with overlaps and at the finish line). However, to penalize a boat for having an efficient whisker pole (i.e equal to the foot of the foresail) is ridiculous! If I suggested this to our PHRF Committee I'd be laughed off the lake...

Derek
Chairman, PHRF Committee
Canyon Lake (PHRF of the Alamo)

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 12:20:55

FollowUp - PHRF-NE does say whisker = J, but the NOR's all say that the boat can follow class rules. The NOR's weren't out when I first posted this thread. Logic prevails.

jwa

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