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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Old Cat vs Newer Cats

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bdouglas
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/16/2004 : 23:43:27

This forum is amazing - just made my first post a couple of hours ago looking for a boat and have already had someone I've never met offer to take me sailing - what a great welcome!

I'm a beginning sailor (got absolutely hooked after my first lessons!) in Oklahoma City and am in the market for a Cat-25.

As a newbie, the tendency of course is to want a newer model boat. But the more I read the more references I find that, in several cases, older model boats are actually built stronger/better than the newer ones.

Can anyone educate me on the major design changes that evolved in the Catalina 25 from the early 70's to the 90's that might impact my purchase decision? Would you rather have an early 70's model that has been well maintained vs a mid-80's model for example?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Brent Douglas
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Brent Douglas
Fiasco - 84 SR/FK #4488

Edited by - on

rford
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 00:40:15

Welcome to the forum

When purchasing my boat this discussion helped me

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4156

Although a little more controvserial than is healthy in my opinion the research behind the "mark" concept is helpful in understanding changes to the Catalina 25 over the years.

As for construction, they are probably all built about the same, it seems the changes are primarily cosmetic although the flat sole in the later models is quite nice.

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 00:53:58

Welcome Brent,

'bottom line for me was that a water ballast C250 offered the best compromise in all I sought in a boat. Price, sailability, towability, etc. I really liked the C25's I looked at, but they're just too much for me to tow any distance. It depends on your circumstances; no one sailboat fills all needs.

Greg

Edited by - Waterboy on 05/17/2004 01:20:09

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 04:41:19

Welcome, Brent. I'm delighted you're "absolutely hooked" on sailing after a few lessons. I would recommend you read "First You Have to Row a Little Boat," by Richard Bode. C-25s are great boats, but you might want to start out in something smaller. It will make you a much better sailor and reduce your financial commitment until you're really, really sure you love sailing that much. A smaller, lighter, more trailerable boat will give you lots of good experience before you make the rather considerable investment of a C-25 or the like.

Last weekend I finally met the family that owns the dying O'Day in the slip next to mine. The husband clearly knows next to nothing about sailing, and they bought the boat years ago because they thought sailing seemed like fun. The boat hasn't been sailed by this family for several years. Most of the boats in my marina sit idle because the owners bought more boat than they really needed, or because they weren't prepared for the serious commitment of time, energy, and money owning a boat of this size entails.

If you really want a C-25 (or C-250, but I had my first long look at one a couple of weeks ago and definitely prefer the C-25), you'll get lots of good advice here. If you're new to sailing, however, you might want to start in something like a Catalina 14 or 16 or Flying Scot or the like.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 05/17/2004 14:20:52

Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 07:13:21

We bought an older Catalina 25 mostly because of price issues. You can get an older one for a whole pile of money less than a new one if you are willing to put in some work. I would say forget about getting something smaller and just get a 25 foot boat for your first boat if you want one. I know several folks who have bought their first boats in the 36-40 foot range. I just helped one of them sail his new Hunter 36 up from Deltaville, VA to Solomons Island, MD on Saturday. Though it may sound strange, a 25 foot boat seems like a pretty small boat these days. Some of the larger manufacturers don't even produce anything less than a 30 footer any more. If you are tooling around on a lake or something a small boat may be OK, but if you are going to be anywhere where you are going to be sailing with waves and chop, go ahead and get the bigger boat - you will probably enjoy it much more. Plus, being able to sleep on the boat is GREAT!

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 07:34:48

Hi Brent,
Welcome to sailing.
Are there any local sailing clubs for you to hang out at and maybe catch a few rides?
My first sailboat was an opti pram when I was 13. then in the 80's, when I was in my 30's I sailed sailboards for a while and learnedm ore about sail theory. My first "real" sailboat was a Catalina 22 swing keel. I'm glad I bought that first before my 25 for several reasons. It was easier to trailer and rig and handle and cheaper. It is a great boat, one of the best ever designed. It had a swing keel which got me out of trouble a couple of times when aground, and I winched the keel up. But I quickly outgrew it as I like to take week long trips in the Keys each year. The 25 was my logical choice. It has a little kitchen area, and best of all, a place to go to the bathroom after morning coffee. The ladies like the bathroom all the time.
You will get lots of opinions of swing, vs, wing, vs, fin keel, vs water ballast. You will have to decide what is best for you. For me an 89 wing was the best choice as I can still trailer it, and it has great stability when sailing in the ocean or bays, and I don't have the swing keel maintenance issues, but still have shoal draft. Like I said, we all have our opinions as to which boat is best for us. They are ALL good boats
Most of us agree that you should stay away from MacGregors, and most of us certainly prefer Catalinas over Hunters. If you are going to trailer, look for a used one with a trailer. a new trailer will cost from 5 to 8 thousand. You also need a good tow vehicle.
One of the best reasons to buy a Catalina is the tremendous amount of support you get from organizations like ours, and suppliers like Catalina Direct.
Good luck, and keep us posted when you get a boat.
Also, I highly recommend getting a survey on any boat you are seriously considering the purchase of, unless you know lots about boats.
The initial purchase price is only the beginning...........

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 08:50:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bdouglas
 ...Can anyone educate me on the major design changes that evolved in the Catalina 25 from the early 70's to the 90's that might impact my purchase decision?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really, the only design changes that matter are the keel types (fin, swing, and wing) and rig (tall or standard).

You might hear a lot about changes to windows, to-hulls, cockpit lockers,...etc, but I haven't heard of anyone passing up a C25 because they didn't like the cockpit drains on a certain model.

As far as having a C25 for a first boat, I wish I had one when I first started sailing.

Actually, the thing that might impact your purchase decision most is price,...that's what did it for me.

Good Luck!

Edited by - dlucier on 05/17/2004 08:53:20

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 08:59:12

A design change which influenced my decision in which Catlina 25 to buy was the purpose built wing keel of the 88-89 models (some call it the Mark 4) It is is not the retrofit keel added to some earlier models. It was a major change in my opinion (of course I may be wrong), as I would not consider buying any other models.
Of course we all have the boat we like best. Everything is a compromise.

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 14:58:54

2 yrs ago I bought my first boat. 1979 Catlina 25 swing keel. The price was right at $5,000. At least I was able to buy a boat. But, after all the time and money I put into it.....I would have been smarter to buy a $20,000 boat rather than put $15,000 into a $5,000 boat. But then again, I couldn't aford a $20,000 boat. Although we love our C25, and it fits the bill for us both in size and our abilities. I just feel like I'll never get all the money out of it. I guess it's a keeper. Happily!

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 20:15:27

Welcome to the wonderful world of sailing.

Check the "Swap Meet" section of the forum...lots of great Catalinas there, and one, that I know of, that is in Oklahoma.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 22:50:40

Hi Brent... What were your lessons on? Smaller boats have some benefits in terms of (1) learning the basics and (2) minimizing your losses if you decide you'd really rather have a bass boat or a Donzi.

I learned on a sailfish-type boat that I built as a kid, later owned a Sunfish, then an O'Day Daysailer (17'), and now the C-25. I remember fondly the responsiveness, quickness, and sporty feeling of those smaller boats, and feel they taught me well. (I've sailed the Sunfish and the Daysailer in very extreme conditions without dumping either of them once.)

That said, if your heart yearns for a 25-footer, the C-25 can't be beat for value and support, PERIOD. The C-250 is a fine boat, but for a different budget, as well as slightly different tastes and needs.

The C-25's design changes were minor--cockpit gasoline locker, transom scuppers, glass-encased lead fin keel (replacing a cast iron fin), flat floor (after the swing keel was discontinued), and the wing keel (which can be retrofitted onto the swing). The '89 Wing is probably the best-of-breed for all but the hardcore racers, but only by a small margin. I am well satisfied with my '85 fin, and most people here seem to feel the same about their choices. If you know the keel configuration you want, then it's just a matter of finding one that meets your requirements for price versus condition. When you think you have, check back with the forum for opinions, and before you commit, get a survey (and be there when it's done).

All the best in your quest!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/17/2004 22:55:27

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 23:03:03

Brent,
I went for my first sailboat ride on Hephner, later my friend had a Catalina 22 and then an S2 6.9 (22). My friend always had a slip at the public marina but I have raced out of the yacht club. As I recall Hephner has good depth everywhere but along the south shore. I think a 25 would be a great Hephner boat with any of the keels. If you are going to keep it there then just find the boat that fate puts in you lap and go for it. For what it is worth, the yacht club will be a nicer experience if you can swing it. I think OCBC has a large San Juan 21 fleet which are really fun smaller boats. Usually there are boats for sale where there are one design fleets.
The offer to sail is open, I am a teacher and will be off for the summer in two weeks.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 23:17:25

If you can pick up an older C25 that surveys well I think your needs will be well met and if you keep up with these forums you'll learn how to get the most out of your vessel. If a boat surveys well, I would think that your most important considerations would be tall or regular rig, fin, swing(if you trailer), or wing keel and of course price; rather than model year. Welcome aboard and good luck.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 07:58:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 I would think that your most important considerations would be tall or regular rig, fin, swing(if you trailer), or wing keel and of course price; rather than model year. Welcome aboard and good luck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In OKC you have to have a trailer, even if you use a bubbler to stay in over the winter you still do not have a commercial marina to haul and move your boat.

Edited by - on

bdouglas
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 12:41:58

Thanks all for the wonderful support and tips! As I mentioned before, the support from this forum is one of the main reasons I'm choosing a Catalina.

To answer some of your questions, I'm currently taking sailing lessons on Lake Hefer in a 12ft Laser Pico. When researching what to learn on, the almost universal response was that small boats give you a much better 'feel' for sailing than the bigger ones. Nothing like a capsize and a swim to help you develop a 'feel' for the boat!

I've about decided that I'll be okay with any of the keels on Hefner (although the swing gives me an added margin of 'safety'). What I'm still struggling with is the Catalina 22 vs Catalina 25 decision. The 25 has more 'wife appeal' because of the bigger cabin and enclosed head than the 22, but I've heard differing opinions on whether or not the 25 is that much harder for a beginner to handle. Any comments/thoughts would be welcome!

That said, I'm just trying to take it slow, and take some folks up on their kind offers to go sailing with them on their 25's so I can see for myself.

Thanks again for all the help - both online and off - and I'll keep you posted.

Brent

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 13:12:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What I'm still struggling with is the Catalina 22 vs Catalina 25 decision. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Brent, I bought my C-25 new in 1981 and love it, but I owned a C-22 before I bought the 25. A C-22 is much lighter in weight, and easier to trailer with a smaller tow vehicle. It takes a strong (more expensive) tow vehicle to pull a C-25 through mountains. The C-22 is also easier to rig, launch and retrieve. I loved the ease of trailering the C-22, and sailed it in Lake Michigan, Lake Erie and the Florida Gulf Coast, as well as many inland lakes. Since buying the C-25, I still trailer the boat occasionally, but have become much less inclined to do so, especially for short trips (2 weeks or less). I really enjoyed the easy trailerability of the C-22 for two years.

Edited by - on

bdouglas
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 17:05:12

Will I be able to tow a Catalina-25 on a trailer with a Chevy Tahoe (350 with 8800lbs towing capacity)?

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 17:58:13

If you can handle a C 22 you can definitely handle a C 25, and in both the long and short term you'll be glad you went for the larger boat. In practical terms, the C 25 is virtually twice the size and has twice the volume and amenities of the C 22 which you'll outgrow in short order, and it does pay to make the wife happy.

As an aside, I learned to sail on Prindle cats and Solings before I bought Silver Girl in '83 and had no problem acclimating at all. I've had no trouble moving up from my C 25 to Beneteau 46.5's when chartering in the BVI. The C 25 is an easy boat to learn and handle.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 18:18:19

I'm not familiar with the Tahoe model, but 8800 Pounds of towing capacity should be enough. Any tow vehicle with a short wheelbase is not recommended, because they reportedly have a tendency to jacknife. (I suspect excessive speed is also a factor in those accidents.) A very helpful factor is whether the tow vehicle has 4WD or not. With 4WD, you can launch a fin keel C-25 from a roller-bunk trailer on a decent launch ramp without even using a trailer tongue extension. If you don't have a 4WD, then you either need a tongue extension to launch a fin keel boat, or you need to have it hoisted into and out of the water. A wing or swing keel boat has shallower draft and is easier to launch.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 22:00:56

IMHO stuff follows...

A C25 prepares you for a 'full-size' boat. It's no more difficult to sail than a smaller boat, but has enough mass that you can get a feel for the handling and response of a heavier vessel. It's well mannered boat and has good balance, stability and enough size to give a feeling of security in most weather you'll encounter.

The size of the cabin will open a whole new dimension to your sailing. In a C22 you're basically 'camping on a boat', the C25 you're living space is like a small trailer.

While the C25 is 'big on the trailer' the launching and retrieval processes aren't really any more complicated than the smaller Catalina. Your rig should be adequate to tow in most circumstances... especially with a dose of prudence thrown in.

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 16:04:25

Brent,

My story with Hey Jude C25fk 2958 is different than most. I did not know how to sail and I never owned a boat before. I got into 25's because my daughter had one given to her (it was a '78, abandoned and in poor shape) by the marina where she worked.

I had so much fun working on it that I decided to get my own. This was before I had ever been out! The only thing I had sailed before was a sunfish and I dumped it half a dozen times one afternoon on St. Thomas.

I bought Hey Jude ('82) for $3500, no trailer. But everything worked, just needed love and a bottom job. My daughter sold her boat to a friend of mine for $2200 and my buddy Paul did a fantastic job with "Sparky" and now outsails me all the time.

You can find deals if you look hard.

Every time I lust after a Catalina 30 I remind myself of the inverse proportion rule - "the bigger the boat, the less it gets out" and the geometric progression rule - "the bigger the boat the more things cost in geometric progression to the length" ( so maybe a 30 footer is 20% bigger but costs 50% more? Sails, slip fees, engines, etc.)

I do know that there are a number of C25's on Lake Texoma. My family lives in Tishomingo and last month I visited a marina just outside Madill and saw two 25's and a 27. One of the 25's (had red covers and trim) had not moved since the year before I visited.

Jim Williams

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