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Got 37 degrees of heel-Woo Hoo

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/10/2004 : 11:40:28

Yesterday I was stuck with race duty at our local sailing club. No wind, so race cancelled, so I worked on the boat instead. By late afternoon it started blowing about 10 knots all of a sudden. Here in Knoxville that's a blow. So I cast off and proceeded to sail single handed.
We got some harder momentary gusts too.
I have a newly mounted Plastimo Contest 101 compass mounted in the port bulkhead (still have to hook up the wiring) and this compass also shows heel angle.
Lately I have been trying to see just what my 89 tall rig wing can take so I have been trying to heel her over just for grins. I hit 37 degrees.
So here's my questions. What is the maximun heel any of you have gotten out of your winged boats? Is there a point where I will tip over (help, I've fallen and can't get up) Will a wing self right itself if I do tip over. I guesse I really should put in the hatch boards and button her up when I do this.
The worst thing that happened is that the blender fell off the top of the stove. I hope it isn't broken, that would be a tragedy (the young lady I had out on Saturday really enjoyed the frozen margaritas while sunning herself, looked good too) Sorry for the digression, I'm easily distracted, but what say you about angle of heel?

Frank Gloss
Formerly 89WK/TR
85 Ericson 32-3 shoal draft "Molto Bene"

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 11:48:09

I can't comment specifically on your heel angle, but it reminds me of a question I've had in the back of my head. The two sinks on my 95 wb each have their own through-hull with no valve. The one in the head appears especially susceptible to getting water inside the boat at a high angle of heel. Is this ever an issue? Anyone put valves on their through hulls because of this?

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dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 12:12:39

Without consideration of wave action . . . the worst that will occur (if the rigging and keel are intact) is a 'knock down'. She may go just past mast horizontal to the water . . . but no further. It would take a near gale to do this.

Much more likely is the scenario where the wind builds, angle of heel increases, rudder looses lift and the boat heads up rather dramatically . . . the sudden lift generated by the apparent increase in speed and wind angle will cause a little greater angle of heel as she spins into the wind. It's at this point that the keel weight asserts itself and the ship rights, sometimes dramatically - it's often at this point that someone is launched into the water.

Our boats are basically counterbalanced pendulums with the bulk of the weight hung off the hull as the keel. The more weight aloft as wind pressure increases - the more angle of heel - the greater the 'righting moment' (1/3 of the total weight in the keel now hung off to one side). This translates to increased force on the standing rigging and it's hell attachment points, more stress on sail cloth, track slides . . . etc, etc.

It's fun to 'ride em high' with lots of 'waa-hoos' but . . . when that sweet thing finds the blender broke or goes for an unexpected swim, your priorities might change. I remember a flight instructor who insisted that passenger comfort and safety were the same thing. I always try to 'fly' Solitaire so that everyone's comfortable. Remember that speed in the real world in measured in distance made good and that you often get better results with less sail.

A much better question is 'What is the optimum angle of heel?' I don't know yet as I tend to sail by feel and don't have an inclinometer. My guess it that it will be between 20 and 25 degrees where the best speed, lowest leeway are achieved. Does anyone out there KNOW the angles where wings, fixed and swingers sail best?

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 12:17:22

Frank - I don't know if there's much difference between a wing and a fin, but on Saturday (with a 155% up and a full main) we were hit by several 25 mph gusts and had the lee rail in the water...despite flogging the main! That has to be 40 degrees +/-.

Almost rounded up a few times.
Derek
P.S. We still won the Spring Series with 4 bullets after 2 discards.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 13:04:38

Indiscipline heels to 45 degrees often. Especially when deeply heeled and I decide to winch in the genoa sheets (225 lbs on the lee rail). Lots of things fall down in the cabin when this happens.

The boat starts to round up around 40 to 45. Time for a reef. I often sit on the weather side, on the combing in front of the winch, and steer with a tiller extender in these conditions. Make sure the lifelines are strong! I don't think I've ever been beyond 45. Sailing is a sport!

Keep in mind that your boats MAXIMUM righting moment occurs at an angle of 90 degrees! That means, sails and rigging aside, the maximum righting torque applied by the keel occurs at 90 degrees. If the sails and boom are in the water, they will resist that. A full knockdown!

I am sure the C25 has a positive righting angle up to at least 120 degrees - at which point you would have to be really worried about water in the cockpit, over the hatch boards, and into the salon. The C25 probably can not be considered to survive a complete roll over due to these factors. Thus it's coastal rating.

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 13:45:10

David and Jim's explanations are very well developed and very informative, and Antares has rounded up several times. However, it's also been my experience that rounding up is not necessarily assured.

Twice now Antares has been heeled over excessively by extremely strong gusts, and didn't round up. Instead, she remained heeled over until the gusts dissipated. Both times she was making little to no way, so I assume there is some correlation between forward momentum, angle of attack and sail trim to the rounding up phenomenon.

In the worst of the two incidents, I was in the process of hoisting the jib after having hoisted the main. (One of my singlehanding "tricks" is to keep the boom sheeted in while hoisting the sails in order to avoid getting clocked by the boom. The main problem with this tactic is that the C25's high freeboard generally gets pushed off the wind, and Antares will begin sailing herself.) On this particular day, my jib pendant had wrapped my anchor chain shackle (since removed from the area), which I only discovered after the jib was three quarters up.

I was moving forward along the doghouse to release the fouled jib pendant when an extremely strong gust caught the boat broadside. Next thing I knew, I was standing on the windows of the doghouse, which were horizontal, and looking basically straight down into the water. The gust dissipated, Antares righted herself, and I returned to the cockpit to release the mainsheet and regroup (i.e., change my shorts). Shortly thereafter, while trying to pull in a reef, another gust popped all my nylon sail slugs out of the kerf; but that's another story.

As near as I can tell, Antares was heeled over to 90 degrees less the difference between 90 degrees and the angle of the doghouse sides, which is maybe 10 degrees, so I'd guess 80 degrees of maximum heel. Theoretically, at 90 degrees the mast will be perpendicular to the water at an elevated distance equal to the new water line and the center of the deck. So, water would be more likely to make its way into the cockpit lazerettes than the companionway. Personally, I think a roll beyond 90 degrees for any time at all would spell disaster and, quite frankly, a roll nearing 80 degrees is scary as hell.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 14:36:15

OK the real issue is where is the photo of your crew

A couple of years ago at the High Sierra Reggetta at Huntington lake it was blowing to beat the band. During this race there was a moore 24 that was dismasted by the wind, a Holder that sank, and a number of smaller boats that flipped over. Some of the smaller boats righted and kept going others had to be rescued. One poor guy had done the whole race, about 7 miles one way then back, and flipped about 15 feet from the finish line. He couldn't get back up and was towed out.
We had the 110 up crew included a guy from San Diego, two guys from our local club my wife and myself. We kind of make up the party boat in the series. We were flying I'll tell you. Brigitte and I were acting as movable ballast and checking the teltails on the jib the two extras in the cockpit were jib sheet trimmers, The other guy was helmsman. At one point I looked down and saw the helmsman get deathly white as our main sail took a dip in the water. I'm not sure how far this healed but it was pretty far. Brigitte, the admrial, had a smile on her face from ear to ear.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 14:44:00

"put in the hatch boards and button her up when I do this."

Good idea... and make sure the hatches on the lazarette(s) are secured.
I saw a V21 sink during a knockdown this way. If things are really gettin'
nasty, I'd also stuff rags in the vent openings on the coaming. The
one that faces forward makes a nice water scoop.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 19:00:48

Your boat can't round up if it is not moving. I've seen boats get knocked down in their slips by a big gust (over 50) during a Lake Michigan thunderstorm which turned the lake white and produced numerous waterspouts. And these boats were under bare poles!

I think if it's not moving, it will just lay down where it is, spill the wind, and the keel weight will bring her back up when the gust is over.

If it's moving, the force on the rudder will get excessive, the heel will be 40+ and you can hear a roar like a waterfall off the rudder. The boat will turn to windward uncontrolled. You can fight it, dump the main, bear off, pretend that you wanted to turn to windward anyways, or perhaps turn downwind and tie in a reef or two.

I find reefing to be much easier when headed downwind, main sheeted in, sailing under the headsail alone. Set the tiller pilot, slack the halyard, crank in the reefing line, tie the sail in bundles, tighten the halyard, and you are ready to go back to it in a couple of minutes.

May have to do so tonight, as it is 17 gusting 24 with SSW winds and 5+ foot seas!

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 19:43:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is there a point where I will tip over<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes....the stability curve of boats in this design regime shows a decreasing positive righting moment untill about 125 degrees....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2004 : 21:42:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is there a point where I will tip over<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes....the stability curve of boats in this design regime shows a decreasing positive righting moment untill about 125 degrees....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The good news is that about the only way you can reach that angle is by being tossed over by a large wave. The wind alone won't do it--when you get to 90 degrees, you have nothing for the wind to push. So, if you're in cresting or breaking seas large enough to roll you, things could be dicey--otherwise, you're pretty safe. As stated by some others, this is just one of the reasons the C-25 and C-250 are not "blue water" boats. When the seas are large and cresting, a C-25/250 had better be hiding somewhere.

BTW, at the 80 degrees reported above, there's probably going to be a large amount of water in the cockpit. If the heel is to port on a C-25, the green water is entering the cockpit over the sail locker (dumpster), which, if not latched down, can sink the boat before you can get to your VHF (or your PFD). Keep that sail locker latched with something (like an unlocked padlock) in the hasp.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2004 : 09:00:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...it's also been my experience that rounding up is not necessarily assured.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Mine too. I suspect it has to do with how well balanced the sailplan is at the moment. If the rig is tuned and the sails are trimmed so that there is a nearly neutral weather helm, the boat might not round up. She'll just lay over on her beam until the wind eases, or until you ease the sheets.

When it happens on an inland lake with relatively small waves, there usually isn't much green water that comes over the coaming. Usually it's just enough of a dollop to wet your shorts.

Where the waves are bigger, you'll undoubtedly get more water, but I still don't think it will be enough to threaten the boat, if the cockpit lockers are secured.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2004 : 22:03:24

Hi
That's good advice to latch the lazarettes when playing "heeling" games.
If my shorts get wet, it will probably be from me.
As far as pics of the crew goes, one of these days I'll learn how to use my digital camera and how to post. All of this technology really wears me out.

I'm playing these heeling games to get more of a feel of what my little boat can do, and also get more comfortable with it.
I do need to hook up a single line reefing system and lead it through the rope clutches to the cockpit. It's on my list. As well as a workable outhaul system. Mine sucks.

Edited by - on

Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2004 : 20:32:51

I am not sure it is safe to say that the wind alone cannot capsize the boat. I have seen thunderstorms with sustained 50 mph and gusts to 75. If things went wrong in the perfect fashion, I think a 75 mph wind could tumble the boat all the way around. Once the sail hits the water it's stationary. If the wind is on the beam, a 50 knot wind will be sliding the boat sideways at several knots. Once the mast hits the water, the hull will be blown sideways, over the top of the boat.

I have never had the spreaders in the water but I've had a pretty good broach under spinaker, I would guess we went close to 80 degrees. Getting the rail under and solid water on the deck is pretty common. I used to have an O'day and we had a broach on that one where it was difficult to release the sheet because the leeward winch was underwater.

I think the most interesting one was the knockdown I had on a 42' blue water vessel on a calm day. Out of shear ignorance, the pilot in a large Coast Guard helicopter decided to hover over our boat. They backed off when they notice the boat go down. We had an interesting discussion over the VHF, the only time I ever had a chance to chastise the Coast Guard.

Greg Jackson
Compass Rose (89 wing)

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2004 : 13:09:52

All this talk about knockdowns and sinking options has gotten the gears turning again. I have never really pursued the thought of sinking to a final conclusion. As I have read through the above posts, I recall several of the recent violent gusts I have experienced this spring. Although I never felt like the boat was in danger of sinking, realistically, it is an option. So here's where I'm going with this...if it's bad, and you know you're in it for awhile, you will most likely be tethered to a jack line. Anyone getting my thoughts on "the worst possible scenario" on this one? I use a locking carabiner on my end of the tether because it's a system I'm comfortable with from my "climbing days". But if you were to tie into your tether with a bowline or other secure knot, and the boat started sinking after a knock down, there's a good chance you would go down with the ship. I have recently re-thought how I use my PFD (from a recent night time MOB incident). I keep a strobe, cyalume stick, whistle and a serrated blade folding knife in my PFD. Hopefully these added items could help get you out of a jam. Fair Winds. Todd Frye

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Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2004 : 14:15:32

Todd,

I find reference to your 'climbing days' quite interesting. I too have been an avid climber for decades, having recently (and somewhat reluctantly) decided I'd cheated gravity enough. I've had a couple sailing instructors who offered they like sailing with climbers, and I believe a climbing background is beneficial to sailing for several reasons.

- we're used to handling gobs of ropes in inclement conditions.

- we're used to being self sufficient 99.99% of the time.

- we're used to looking for hazards wherever they might exist.

- we understand very clearly the grave consequences of stupidity.

Adding jacklines and a tether for my PFD/harness is on the list. I figured one locking biner at the bow and two at the stern on some good 1" webbing would suffice. For the tether, I was planning to thread shock cord through 5/8" spectra webbing, with a locking biner on the harness side and good stainless D ring on the tether side.

I just picked up two strobes, and have been wondering where to keep the knife. I've heard it should be accessible to either hand, in case the 'smart' hand is unable to get to the blade. How about a handheld VHF in there too? One could take this too far ... end up looking like Rambo, but this isn't what I'd expect to wear near shore on a sunny day with a 4 knot wind.

Greg

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2004 : 17:18:26

the last time I went climbing, on Grand Teton, it activated the "chicken part" of my brain, and I haven't been climbing since.
I used to be heavily involved in whitewater Kayaking, and taking long self supported trips with kayaks and oar rigs down the Grand Canyon, or the Middle Fork of the Salmon, or Gauley rivers and I have found that experienced whitewater folks make great sailing companions too. They are comfortable in the water, know ropes etc. One of my favorite stories is the time in my Catalina 22, when heeled over, my friend Ken "highsided" the boat, meaning he went to the upper rail, which is instinctive to whitewater rafting, and also was the windward rail. He made good rail meat.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2004 : 18:55:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Todd Frye
 ...So here's where I'm going with this...if it's bad, and you know you're in it for awhile, you will most likely be tethered to a jack line...I use a locking carabiner on my end of the tether because it's a system I'm comfortable with from my "climbing days". But if you were to tie into your tether with a bowline or other secure knot, and the boat started sinking after a knock down, there's a good chance you would go down with the ship...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Waterboy
 ...Adding jacklines and a tether for my PFD/harness is on the list. I figured one locking biner at the bow and two at the stern on some good 1" webbing would suffice. For the tether, I was planning to thread shock cord through 5/8" spectra webbing, with a locking biner on the harness side and good stainless D ring on the tether side.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Last year I attended a safety seminar put on by the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society and the hottest topic was the use of tethers. They strongly advocated having a quick release snap shackle on the harness end of the tether so one could quickly untether. This was a hot topic because they had lost one of their own during a multiday race when this person went over the side while tethered to his boat. His tether had a locking biner connected to the harness that he apparently couldn't escape from, and it was surmised that he probably lived for a few hours while being continously slammed against the hull as his boat sailed on. With a quick release snap shackle, he could have disconnected himself from the boat.

The GLSS also mandates the skipper to have attached to him at all times a sheathed knife or a folding knife capable of being opened with one hand.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 07:21:51

when whitewater canoeing with thigh straps you paddle with a Tekna knife strapped to the shoulder of your life jacket. you can release it from it's plastic sheath one handed to cut the straps if needed. should work with a tether.

Hey Don, what kind of knife can you open with one hand? Isn't that called a switchblade? Remember West Side Story?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 09:15:02

Many sailor's knives (folding blade style) are designed to be opened with one hand. I have one in my pocket at all times (except when heading to the airport...)
Derek

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 09:36:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 ...Hey Don, what kind of knife can you open with one hand? Isn't that called a switchblade? Remember West Side Story?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Knives with a thumbstud, like that shown in the picture, can be opened with one hand.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 09:52:23

IMPORTANT STUFF...

An critical consideration for choosing a rescue knife is the blade configuration. There is a 'safety blade' style available that is far less likely to inflict a wound when used under emergency conditions than a 'Rambo' style blade.

(For example only) WestMarine has one listed... "Gerber EZ Out Rescue Knife".

I'd hate to think of turning myself into floating shark chum whilst cutting the tether that's going to leave me stranded out in the water...

(you freshwater guys don't have to worry about that one anyway).

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 19:04:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...it activated the "chicken part" of my brain...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's not a bad thing; fear keeps us aware and alive. I've found experienced climbers talk more about returning safely than gloriously vanquishing another pillar. "He who climbs and runs away lives to climb another day." There must be a similar maxim for prudent sailing.

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 22:23:29

I agree with most of what the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society says about safety. I think I can lay claim to both the smallest boat, and the only Catalina 25, to have ever completed a GLSS race.

Regarding the issue of going down with the boat: If you don't prepare, it's easy to do. If you do prepare, it is very difficult. The way to sink a boat in the kind of storms we (protected water sailors) see is to forget to close and latch the forward locker and the cockpit lockers. It is also important to put the hatch boards in place and clasp the main hatch down. In every storm I have been through I have been in the miserable, but safe, position of being teathered to the boat, outside in the cockpit, with all hatches closed and latched. It would be much nicer to stay in the cabin with the boat under autopilot, and then look out every once in a while, but it is far too unsafe to leave the companionway open. In the conditions I mention, I am wet, in the wind, getting spray in the face, but I know the boat cannot sink and I cannot become detatched from the boat.

This is different than being in true blue water storms. I have not been there but from all my research it seems that getting caught in a big storm in the open ocean, the most common problem is the windows. If a boat gets caught broadside on a large breaking wave, it will often fall off the face of a tall wave. In this case the boat can end up at 90 degrees of heel and drops vertically, 5 to 10 feet of freefall. It ends up hitting the surface of the water hard on the lee beam. The leeward port lights get blown inward and water starts coming in. If you find yourself in these types of conditions in a C25, you're probably going to die, with or without a tether.

G. Jackson

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 23:14:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Greg Jackson
 I agree with most of what the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society says about safety. I think I can lay claim to both the smallest boat, and the only Catalina 25, to have ever completed a GLSS race...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Congratulations on meeting the challenge Greg.

Participating in the Chicago-to-Mackinac solo challenge is very impressive. I see your time was 86 hours 59 minutes 18 seconds. That has to be a record for a C25 in any distance race, let alone a singlehanded one. One day I hope to become a member of the GLSS, which is why I attended their safety seminar last year.

For those who are unfamiliar with the [url="http://webhost.sailnet.com/glss/"]Great Lakes Singlehanded Society[/url]...

"The Great Lakes Singlehanded Society is an organization established for the perpetuation of the sport of solo sailing. Its purpose is twofold, the first being to encourage the development of suitable techniques, equipment, and gear for shorthanded passage under sail; its second being the recognition of accomplishments of singlehanded sailors in the Great Lakes region.

Membership in the society is conveyed only to those individuals who successfully complete the Port Huron to Mackinac Island Singlehanded Challenge or the Chicago to Mackinac Singlehanded Challenge. The satisfactory completion of either of these challenges is viewed as a singularly significant individual accomplishment. The society views all who do so as winners of this event."

What is special about this society is that they don't look at these events so much as races, but as personal challenges, and as was stated above, just finishing a challenge is considered winning.

Anything particularly memorable about your challenge, Greg?

Edited by - dlucier on 05/16/2004 09:14:33

Todd Frye
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Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 19:33:28

Speaking from my side of the fence, this discussion has been one of the most educational, gratifying and eye-opening threads in a long time...and I think we are all in agreement that there are some pretty increadable posts on this site. Everybody, give yourselves high marks for this exceptional thread. Thanks. Todd Frye.

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