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CB
1st Mate

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54 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/15/2004 : 10:15:32

Hey Gang,
I know this is discussed quite often and there are many opinions on this topic, but....
I'm looking at replacing my 1990'ish Yamaha 6HP with a new outboard.
I am pretty sure I want a 2 stroke, I'm thinking of
Mercury 8hp (found one local for $1250)
Nissan 8hp or 9.8 (becoming harder to find the 2 strokes)
Tohatsu 8 or 9.8
I'm on an inland lake in NC, and was going to go w/ the 20" shaft and manual start (mostly daysailing, 4-5 overnighers per yr)
Any opinions on the Mercury as opposed to the others? I have a 2000 125 HP Merc on my powerboat and I have been very pleased w/ it.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Chris
'81 sr/sk #2672

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 11:49:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CB
 and was going to go w/ the 20" shaftChris
'81 sr/sk #2672
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would strongly recommend you get the "XLS" (extra-long shaft), which is 25" if your preferred brand of outboard comes in a 25" length. The Catalina 25 transom is quite high, and in choppy conditions, a 20" motor will frequently cavitate. Another advantage of the 25" shaft is that the powerhead can sit higher, giving easier access to the controls, and still keep the prop in the water. The 20" shaft motors are sufficient on a Catalina 22, but the C-25 really does better with the XLS 25" shaft.

I am a dedicated 4-stroke guy, so can't really say much about 2-strokes, but if you have a limited budget, I guess they are less expensive in initial purchase price. I just don't like the smell, which sometimes seems to be even more repulsive than diesel exhaust, and the fact that some 2-strokes tend to foul the plugs and stall out just when you need them most. When you are waiting to haul out at a lanch ramp with a long line of boats ahead of you, you might be idleing the motor for 15 or 20 minutes, and 4-stroke outboards are a lot less likely to foul plugs and stall out in that circumstance.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 13:53:49

The smell of two-stroke oil mixed with ocean, anchovies (bait) and salmon... like perfume to me!

At any rate... As I recall, someone commented in another thread that many of the Merc's are made by Tohatsu (Nissan). Dunno about the model you're interested in.

Interesting... I find references to a 25" shaft high-torque 5hp Tohatsu... but apparently, it's not being imported to the USA. :>(

I agree with Larry about a 4 stroke. Personally, I'd opt for the 25" shaft 4 stroke Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8hp.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 14:08:09

I have a 19 year old Mariner/Yamaha 9.9 hp with a 20" shaft that, with a relocated motor mount, works pretty well in the Chesapeake Bay. I seriously doubt that you will encounter waves on a NC inland lake larger than I've encountered in the Chesapeake. On the other hand, if I were ordering a new motor, I would absolutely order a 25" shaft.

Two strokes with exhaust exiting through the prop hub are scentless when in gear. They weigh about 40% less than four strokes, require less maintenance, and are incredibly reliable. I have seen forty year old two-stokes being used regularly. New two-stroke technology produces gas mileage and exhaust emissions rivaling four-stokes.

I do agree with Larry on the higher probability of two-stokes fouling after protracted idling: they like to be run at high speed. I don't trailer my boat, and have found my aging two-stoker to meet every need. I have run it for six hours at a time on a windless day without any problem. Change the plugs twice a year, have it serviced annually, and deal with premixing the gas. It's easier to premix gas than to change the oil in a four-stroke.

Mercury, Nissan, and Tohatsu are all the same motor, made by Tohatsu. Johnson/Evinrude is made by Suzuki. Yamaha is Yamaha, Honda is Honda.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 05/15/2004 14:15:41

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 16:12:58

I have to toss this out: 4 Strokes are cleaner. 2 strokes do pump out more fumes and unburnt fuel. 4 stroke is going to be better for the lake you love.

I also love the fact that I no longer have to carry or mix the gas.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 16:26:55

I have a mid 90's Mercury 8hp 2 stroke and it has performed flawlessly. No fouling of plugs, stalling,...nothing. Last season, I changed the original plugs that came with the motor, not because the engine needed it, I just wanted the piece of mind. The first time the plugs were changed on my old 1979 Johnson 9.9 was when I got it in 1995 and I never had a problem with that motor either.

As for the odor of the 2 stroke, I really don't notice any, but then again, I don't smell so good!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 16:40:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug
 ...I also love the fact that I no longer have to carry or mix the gas...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You don't have to carry the gas anymore?...What, do 4 stroke motors come with a personal valet to tote your gas for you? Hmmm, that would explain the $1,000.00 price difference!

Doug, with all due respect, adding a few ounces of oil to a 6 gallon fuel tank upon filling is a lot easier than changing the oil in a 4 stroke motor or even lifting it.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/15/2004 16:41:52

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 17:52:08

I had a Mariner once on my C-22 and I only mention it because the shifter was on the tiller handle and worked wonderfully. That is, twist the throttle one way for forward and the other way for reverse. I wish my new engine was that way.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 18:10:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben - FL
 I had a Mariner once on my C-22 and I only mention it because the shifter was on the tiller handle and worked wonderfully. That is, twist the throttle one way for forward and the other way for reverse. I wish my new engine was that way.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My current 8hp Merc' also has this integrated throttle/shifter and I like it so much that it would almost be a dealbreaker for me if an engine I was buying didn't have one.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 18:20:23

I have a brand new Nissan 9.8 2 stroke, and have to admit it was a terribly big burden to pour oil in the gas tank before going for the gas.

If someone wants to use that for a reason, then so be it, but it is not a problem to premix the oil and gas.

I understand that Nissan is dropping 2 strokes from their line so it will become harder to find one, at any hp rating. But if you can find with a xls, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Re. pollution. How much damage does a sailor contribute to the water and air when he/she burns like 6 gallons of gas a year. I use mine to get in out of my dock. Period.

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2004 : 20:52:01

I had a 9.8 Merc with an extra long foot and thoroughly loved it. Completely dependable and never gave me any trouble. I used it for 12 years and sold it along with the boat. Now I have a Nissan 9.8 with the 25" foot and it, too, has been wonderful. As far as 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke the pollution is about the same - it's just what you classify as pollution. If I do happen to burn 6 gal this summer, it'll be a first. Frankly, I love the smell of gaoline in the morning.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 17:51:22

CB: I'm also on an inland lake in NC. You don't need an XL shaft, the 20" is more than enough. I'm on Lk Norman with 100s of 40' yachts that kick up monster wakes and I've never had a cavatation problem. I bought a 6hp Tohatsu 4 stroke last year and I love it. It's exactly the same engine as the Merc, only $400-$500 cheaper. It's 55 lbs and you can lift it off with one hand. It cruises nice at 5 knots, top end is only about 5.5. If hull speed were important, I'd look at the Tohatsu 8hp 2 stroke to keep the weight down. I totally agree with Don on the pollution issue... there isn't one! I do like not mixing in oil for the simple reason that once every couple of months, I dump the remaining fuel in my car and refresh the boat gas.

Edited by - matsche on 05/16/2004 19:30:38

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 19:58:38

20" vs 25" is just one factor in the basic issue of whether the prop is deep enough to stay under in whatever kind of chop you expect. Another factor is your bracket--depending on where it's mounted and how low it will go, the 20" shaft may be adequate for an inland lake with an occasional large wake. The third factor is the kind of chop you expect.

I deal with occasional 3-4' waves, sometimes larger, and larger boat wakes from the huge stinkpots that parade up and down Long Island Sound. (The largest wake I've ever dealt with was from a 40-something-foot Coast Guard boat that was cruising bow up in a narrow channel. It came over my bow and almost tossed me out of the cockpit!)

I find that, to keep the prop down in all but the worst cases (like with the Coasties) in this scene, the anticavitation plate should be about 5" below waterline. If I had a 20" shaft, to do that, I'd be dragging the mounting board and the powerhead would be subject to dunking by following seas. An inland lake sailor has different needs.

Another problem I had with the 20" engine and the bracket from the PO was that the cooling intake would lift out of the water when I went to the bow with the engine idling, not under way. Not good!

So, do you need a 25" shaft? Depends. I do, but my situation is different. BTW, it'll add as much as 10 pounds to the weight.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/16/2004 20:06:07

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 21:01:30

If I use an outboard motor with a standard length shaft, the motor will cavitate when I walk from the stern to the bow. I'm on an inland lake, and wouldn't do without a motor with an XL shaft. If you ever trailer it to the Great Lakes or to the coast, you'll absolutely need it. I've even had my XL shaft motor cavitate in really choppy water.

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 21:05:20

My Honda 9.9 came with a 28" (XL) shaft, and in heavy swells it still cavitates unless I literally sit on top of it (not a judicious course of action in heavy swells). Siting the OB on the transom saves space on board (versus siting it in a well ahead of the transom), but it also makes the motor much more likely to cavitate. It is one of the C25's design compromises I have not liked. For a lake sailor, howver, it is not a problem.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 23:42:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm looking at replacing my 1990'ish Yamaha 6HP <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why? Isn't it just getting broken in?

Edited by - on

CB
1st Mate

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54 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 19:04:02

John,
Where are you on Lake Norman? I'm over at All Seasons.
Chris

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 20:01:27

Chris I'm at King's Point. I'm supposed to get my boat over to All Seasons this summer to get hauled for a bottom job and transducer replacements. I'm on a waiting list!

Edited by - on

CB
1st Mate

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54 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 22:11:39

I didn't know they had a waiting list. Are you doing the work yourself, or having them/someone else do it? I was up there on Saturday and the boat yard wasn't as full as I expected for this time of year.
Mine was out last yr about this time and the yard was packed!!

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2004 : 23:27:52

I like docking, it's always a challenge, just like landing an airplane..... (Although I find that easier sometimes.)

Different people different strokes

. My style is the slow and quiet one. No freaked out running around deck with boathook and fenders, no sliced up fish surfacing in the maelstrom coming from the prop..... just an idle put put.......neutral....lines out.... done, shut 'er down.

Whenever there's someone on the dock to catch our lines I, without fail, get the comment: "wow, that thing is quiet..."

Honda four stroke.....next best thing after a well insulated inboard.

Oscar, on the road in Houston TX.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/18/2004 23:32:28

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 07:25:12

Oscar: IMO, that's the way it ought to be! But it's always entertaining to watch a guy coming in cussing and screaming at his crew.

Chris: Tim McCorie (Carolina Rigging) is doing the work. I'm actually on HIS waiting list. Sadly, I don't have the time or talent (or desire) to do it myself. One day hopefully, things will slow down!

Edited by - on

CB
1st Mate

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54 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 23:05:18

John,
I was going to recommend Tim M, he did my bottom paint last yr. Since he covers the haulout, yard expenses, and paint, you can't beat the price. He's a good guy too.
Good luck.
Chris

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 23:16:05

Chris,

Can't really comment on the Merc motors since I have had a 9.9 Johnson longshaft electric start since 1976. Its been a really good motor for me.

Get the longest shaft you can, and if it comes with an electric start, that sure helps!!!

Enjoy!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 22:32:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 My style is the slow and quiet one. No freaked out running around deck with boathook and fenders, no sliced up fish surfacing in the maelstrom coming from the prop..... just an idle put put.......neutral....lines out.... done, shut 'er down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Me too only I have no lines on my boat, they're on the dock. The other day my motor would not start due to a malfunctioning new gas line, it was blowing hard and I was sailing in under partial main alone trying to sidle up to my half-slip. I had the momentum perfect and was about to really impress myself when My brother in-law jumped off the boat the moment we got in range of the other guy's end of the the dock (he's not in yet). We needed to slide on past that part of the dock to my end. This kills my way-on and shoves my bow out from the dock side which instigates my brother in-law's efforts to rip my stanchions off the boat. Don't you hate it when people try to help by hauling a 4000 lb boat around with a stanchion! I always tell people to stand by the shrouds and step off the boat when I tell them to, they nearly always jump early, what is it they think is about to happen?

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 05/20/2004 22:34:30

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 07:31:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Me too only I have no lines on my boat, they're on the dock. The other day my motor would not start due to a malfunctioning new gas line, it was blowing hard and I was sailing in under partial main alone trying to sidle up to my half-slip. I had the momentum perfect and was about to really impress myself when My brother in-law jumped off the boat the moment we got in range of the other guy's end of the the dock (he's not in yet). We needed to slide on past that part of the dock to my end. This kills my way-on and shoves my bow out from the dock side which instigates my brother in-law's efforts to rip my stanchions off the boat. Don't you hate it when people try to help by hauling a 4000 lb boat around with a stanchion! I always tell people to stand by the shrouds and step off the boat when I tell them to, they nearly always jump early, what is it they think is about to happen?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I too come in sloooow with my docklines on the slip and when passengers ask what they should do when coming in to the slip, I tell them to just sit and enjoy the ride. I do this because I have a very simple docking routine and I don't want to add to it by having to watch out for someone trying to help.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/21/2004 07:33:21

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 22:23:32

I'm not even gonna tell you guys how I hook up in my slip. But I will say, I approach it S L O W L Y . . .

Edited by - on

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