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Need to install vang

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/16/2004 : 13:24:40

My new to me C25 has no boom vang (and never did as far as I can tell). I am interested in any advice about what kind of vang to use and how to install it... FWIW, this is my first sailboat - everything else is ready to go but I'm nervous about not having a boom vang. TIA.

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 20:27:41

Welcome Bill,

Everyone must be out sailing so I'll jump in on this one.

Garhauer Marine Hardware, http://garhauermarine.com/ is the OEM for much of the hardware on Catalina Yachts. They have a very good reputation for quality and price.

Garhauer may well have installation hardware also. A gentlemen from North Sails once told me they use rivets for almost everything that gets attached to the boom and mast.

The vang would be angled at 45% from mast to boom (see photo below) . . . sorry I don't have measurements. Will you be running the vang line back to the cockpit?

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 05/16/2004 20:29:09

deastburn
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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2004 : 20:29:20

A vang will improve your sailing off the wind, especially in heavier air. There are two kinds: rigid vangs, which eliminate the need for a topping lift because they support the weight of the boom and sail. And rope or line vangs, available in a range of purchases (4:1 is the right one for the C25). If you purchase a 4:1 vang with quick-release snap shackles at both ends, you are also acquiring a multi-purpose hoist (for example, to hoist a man overboard onto the deck). It is a matter of taste, but personally I prefer the traditional (rope) vang, because of its versatility. You will need to install a boom bail on the boom about four feet aft of the gooseneck to attach the vang to, and a second bail as close to the base of the mast as you can reaonably (and safely) install it. Most vangs come with a cam cleat integrated into the lower block (technically, it is called a fiddle block). I prefer it without the cam cleat, with the line led aft to a rope clutch on the cabin roof. That allows for ease of adjusting when I am single handing. I hope this is helpful.

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 01:32:50

Steve and Dave
Thank you ...
I am thinking of a line vang (4:1) since I am used to that type from other boats I have sailed on. I hadn't thought of running the line to the cockpit although I so want to do that with the halyards. There really isn't any outhaul adjustment on this boat (other than a line with about a million half hitches in it) so I want to make that adjustable too (on SF Bay we need to depower a lot). The reef line is at the mast so I figured that all these would be ok at the mast (reefing line, outhaul, and vang) so I can do them all at once .. but how do I do that if I'm singlehanding?

For the vang, will a through bolt on the boom bail suffice? Someone else said to use a padeye with a chain plate, which would require disassembling the boom. How about the mast end? Should I go for a padeye on the deck? The mast plate has no holes in it...

Thanks again...
Bill (on "Wind Dancer")

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 01:59:21

Check out the latest SAIL mag they have an article on boom vangs and preventors. I never used a preventer before and thought I'd try one out. I just jurry rigged one with an long bungy coard I had. Worked great in light winds, might need something a little more durrable for a heaver wind.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 08:17:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattL
 I never used a preventer before and thought I'd try one out. I just jurry rigged one with an long bungy coard I had. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have a snap shackle on the mast end of the vang. If we ever want a preventer, we just attach it where we need it.

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joegeiger
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 09:28:09

Hi Bill, Like you my C25 didn't come with a boom vang or adjustable outhaul either. I got the boom vang from Catalina Direct and installed it so that I can loosen and tighten it back in the cockpit. I ran all the control lines (Jib Halyard, Jib DownHaul, Topping Lift, Boom Vang, Reefing line, Main Halyard) aft through 2 triple rope clutches mounted on either side of the pop-top just forward of the cabin-top winches. This makes it very easy to sail single handed.

I only had 2 drill holes in the boom for the boom bail. My mast base has built in eyes to attach blocks and the vang to. If yours doesn't have this built in eye you'll have to drill a couple of holes at the base of the mast to mount a second bail. I'm still deciding on how to proceed with the adjustable outhaul. I think I'm leaning towards an in-boom outhaul system to keep things clean. Good Luck... jg

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Bruce Baker
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USA
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Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 14:40:10

I've got a boom vang on my boat, but I've never felt the need to use it. Because the main sheet is well aft on C-25's, the boom does not have a tendency to "sky" like it does on many boats.

I should also note that I sail mainly in light air.

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Derek Crawford
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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 16:36:34

"you'll have to drill a couple of holes at the base of the mast to mount a second bail"
You can get a bail with large enough holes to fit on the bolt that "secures" the mast to the tabernacle. The bail on the boom for the vang is also thru'bolted.
Derek

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 22:39:32

Hi Bill, I'm the picture freak around here. SO I will include a few here. First you do have a boom vang, it is that antique mainsheet purchase on the back of your boat. Several of us have moved them to our boom vang position so we could get nicer mainsheets that take advantage of new technologies or just nicer stuff.

You also see the forward part of my out-haul on the boom.

I ran everything back with harken stacked double organizers, Spinlock clutches and a clam cleat.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 05/17/2004 : 22:43:54

IMHO leading the boom vang line aft is one of the best things you can do... you'll use that vang a lot more if you don't have to crawl up over the hatch to work it.

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bbriner
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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 00:04:38

Everyone - thank you for your help! This is ** great ** ! I really appreciate all your advice (and pictures!)... but now here's a tough (?) one:

Someone pointed out that there is already a through-bolt on the mast (duh!), so I'm wondering... is it safe to take that out while the mast is up? It seems *logical* that it would be safe since the stays are there to keep it in place, but what do you think? I certainly don't want the mast crashing down on my head and other places (and I really don't want to to take it down either).

I'm getting closer - thanks again!
Bill
"Wind Dancer"

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austin72
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 11:28:21

Hi Bill, I'm doing the same surgery right now on my 'new' '79 SR/FK. Here's what my local Catalina dealer told me -
When determining where to mount the vang to the boom, measure the distance from the deck to the bottom of the boom. He said it'll be ~2 feet. You want to mount to the boom equidistant from the mast to that measurement. You can go up to 15% further out on the boom (or 3.6 inches assuming the 2 feet metnioned above is accurate) if needed but no closer as you need a minimum of a 45 degree angle. He mentioned that rivets were the best way to go but you can get away with 1/4 inch bolts for mounting.
I purchased my 4:1 vang from garhauer marine which is mentioned in this string and am happy with my initial opinions regarding quality vs. price (around $80).

Below is a picture of my maiden voyage last weekend, getting the boat from Muskegon, MI to Chicago, IL. I don't think winds get lighter than this. Water water everywhere and no wind of which to speak...

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 11:33:17

Bill,

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're a wee bit off course. Briefly, on my boat I have the same style bail on the mast and the boom - both are riveted on. Or, as Frank's photo shows you could attach the lower end to the mast base plate (term?)
I wouldn't be worried about removing the thru-bolt with mast up on my boat but I never advise anyone else to do the same . . .

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 11:37:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by austin72
 
. . . I don't think winds get lighter than this. Water water everywhere and no wind of which to speak...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No prop wash either, what were you doing out there Austin, having lunch

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austin72
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 12:11:22

"No prop wash either, what were you doing out there Austin, having lunch?"

Nope, waking up! We were becalmed around 9PM the previous evening. I was stubborn and continued to try making way under sail until 3:30 AM. That picture was at about 7:15 in the morning. Prop wash was to follow shortly! Wind came up about 5 hours later, and we made a steady 7.5 knots with following seas to surf. Once Chicago became visible out of the haze it was several more hours until we made it to Monroe Harbor. The city just grew but never got closer! It was really pretty cool!
Sleeping in the middle of Lake Michigan in 37 degree weather though, that's a little too cool...

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 12:37:15

That's a great photo. I feel calmer just viewing it. Thanks for sharing that and your story!

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tzk53s
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 12:58:02

Regarding the temps. last Saturday on the Great Lakes.... I too was on the boat for the first time and told my kids to bring thick blankets; I should have followed my own advice as it was very cold. Unlike Lk Mich. though I was on Huron and it was anything but calm!

The next day (race day) was sunny and light winds of about 5 - 7 knots.

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austin72
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/19/2004 : 13:13:09

"Unlike Lk Mich. though I was on Huron and it was anything but calm!"

That would make sense. When we left Muskegon, MI on Saturday, it was blowing pretty well. We were going out the channel and looking at these BIG rollers hitting the north pier. My mate and I kinda simultaneously looked at each other and had a collective 'Whoooaaa!", ran below, grabbed life jackets and some line to tie ourselves to the boat. Remember this this wa fist time for either of us on a Cat 25, and I had no idea how she would fare.
Once out, I was really surprised how kindly our little boat that could managed the wind and seas; maybe because of the fin keel??? I only had one moment of trepidation when (again, following seas)I heard a BIG breaker behind me, looked back and saw something much larger and faster than us. But, I just headed up - these boats are nimble! - and scooted out of the way of the worst of it. We kind of skid down the face of the wave, letting the boat do what it needed to do to remain stable, which was to head up a bit and get into a beamier (is that a word?) reach.
But I digress. The weather you had on Saturday was similar to ours, but Sunday winds were nonexistent until mid-afternoon.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 22:38:16

OJ -
The reason I mentioned the through-bolt on the mast was to use that as the through bolt for the mast bail - in addition to its intended purpose. This sounds to me like a better idea than mounting a pad-eye to the deck, but this is really my main question at this point. Pad-eye or mast-mount?

After this I'll be set! Can anyone advise? Thanks...

BTW, the pics are great. Thanks everyone!

Bill

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 05/22/2004 : 11:37:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 Pad-eye or mast-mount?Bill
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I will go out on a limb here and say something strong. Only someone who does not have a feel for the forces involved in a boom-vang would mount a pad eye. (Or they would have to genuinely engineer a suitable solution involving load transfer rods under the deck and stuff like that.) A mast bail either should be fitted to the mast or you should use a halyard plate instead. A halyard plate opens up a world of opportunities for other things so in my mind it is the rational choice for someone with nothing at all. If you look closely at my first picture of the three in my other post you will see the discoloration left behind by the mast bale that I took off when I installed my halyard plate. The second screw hole on either side is hidden by the tabernacle so you would need to drop the mast to mount either the bale or the plate. Why not provide future options.
When I got my boat it had deck mounted halyard turning blocks.

One of them had bad bearings, It would have been a real hassle to find a match for it to replace it and it would not have improved my boat. I think every dollar you spend should improve and never replace. Now if I want a different halyard block it takes 2 minutes to take the old one off the plate and add a different one.

Of course you should do what you want to do but I felt like you needed to hear a stronger statement for the alternatives. I have seen a LARGE bale that used the tabernacle bolt somewhere and it seemed fine. It was a LARGE curved rod flattened on each end for the bolt holes. It was probably the diameter of my little finger. If my mast were up and I wanted a vang before I dropped it again it would seem the answer. But if my mast were down I would go with the plate.

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bbriner
Captain

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Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 10:03:38

Frank,
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. The pad-eye was suggested to me by someone in the rigging shop of a very large marine supply chain store. I thought it sounded suspect, given, as you point out, the forces involved on a boom vang.

I have a plan of action now. Thank you all. Order of business (a) Boom Vang using boom and mast bails (I'm still deciding on whether to drop the mast and install a halyard plate), (b) Run main and jib halyards aft, (c) Install adjustable outhaul, (d) eventually run the remaining control lines aft as well.

This coming weekend is our maiden voyage. We are moving her from a marina on the San Francisco peninsula north to the Richmond marina, which will take us under the SF Bay Bridge, in front of SF waterfront, past Alcatraz and Angel Island then into Richmond. I'll let you know how it goes.. yesterday we had 15-20k winds and had a great day (on a J/24 w/spinnaker). Hopefully we'll have more of the same next weekend!

Bill

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