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Question: Handling a C25 in a thunderstorm

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TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2004 : 13:48:40

Does anyone have any advice about the best way to ride out a thunderstorm? I sail in Moble bay, which is shallow. I could pull down the sails and drop an anchor. Another possiblity is heaving to.

These storms are often brief but can be intense. Thanks for your advice.

Tom

Tom Albright

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2004 : 14:02:54

Hi Tom,

I don't know the "best" way, but I vote for pulling down the sails and dropping the hook.

Last Labor Day weekend I was tied up to a mooring ball when a line of huge thunderstorms hit the lake ... winds peaked at over 50 mph. My boat did fine ... my date just about soiled herself ...

... I think our boats can take more than most people's comfort level.

It'll be interesting to see what others have to say on this one.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2004 : 18:47:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TomA
 Does anyone have any advice about the best way to ride out a thunderstorm?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I guess it depends on what's going on with the weather, like driving rain, high winds, heavy seas, lightning,...etc.

I, like Buzz, drop the sails when the storms are going to have excessive winds, but if its only a downpour and manageable winds, I will leave the sails up and hide under the bimini.

As for heavier stuff, I've been caught in a couple of storms with sustained 50 mph winds and ugly seas, and each time I've stowed the sails and fired up the motor. I find that with bare poles, I have a few less things to keep my eye on.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2004 : 19:52:45

When and if we ever find ourselves in such a predicament we would motor (sails stowed) into a storm nose first.

Yes, most inland storms are brief yet intense . . . just like when the admiral goes ballistic - she only has a finite amount of wind

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2004 : 19:55:29

Tom, my biggest concern in a thunderstorm (as opposed to a squall) would be the lightning. If you can hear thunder, you're in danger of being struck. There are archived threads about how best to protect the boat from lightning -- or IF you can protect the boat at all -- but in a thunderstorm, I think I would want to be below and as far from any possible electrical path as possible.

If we're talking about wind and rain -- then I have shortened sail and sailed into a squall till it blows through. Dropping the hook and riding it out is also a good option.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2004 : 20:00:27

Lake sailor.
After getting the sails down and secure the party moves inside while I stand lashed to the tiller in my southwester hat. Motor running we then head for the club. On the way we look for daysailers, boardboats, and cats to rescue. If we know of a boat that has "disappeared" we go look for it.

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 11:26:57

I have sailed through, motored through, and anchored, depending on the predicted intensity and duration.

If actual lightning is involved, it is important to have a grounded mast and rigging.

One time, when a really nasty front came through, I went into a bay and anchored. About 45 minutes later I came out of the cabin in the same place but I noticed that another sailboat that had done the same thing had drifted back almost half of a mile. If you need to stay in one place it is helpful to back down hard on the anchor to get it to set.

G. Jackson

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 14:10:25

Thanks for the advice. I've been researching various methods for grounding the mast and other metallic objects on the boat. BTW, in addition to the archived posts, there's a good article in this month's Mainsheet magazine.

Does anyone know if putting a few small screws into the mast compression post inside the cabin will weaken it? My guess is that it won't hurt anything. I'm thinking about running a wire from the base of the mast, down the compression post, and into a keel bolt of the wing keel. The wire will need to be fastened to the compression post in some manner.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 14:30:31

"putting a few small screws into the mast compression post inside the cabin"

IMHO, it shouldn't hurt a thing... the compression post isn't under THAT much stress... also the portion of my compression post inside the cabin appears to have a cover of nicely finished teak screwed over some other wood underneath. Small screws probably won't even be touching the post itself.

Where do you see your keel bolts... mine are not visible... bedded in the structure ?

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 14:49:51

Bruce, Does your boat have a swing keel? If so, I think our boats are designed differently. On my wing keel the bolts are straight up in the bottom of the bilge.

Here's an excerpt from an archived post by Leon that describes the grouding system for his swing keel. Hope this helps!

Here's a description of the lightning grounding system on my C-25:

Tabernacle is thru-bolted at the deck. There's a #4 or heavier marine grade electrical cable from one of the thru-bolts which follows the compression post down to the area of the swing keel pivot. Both ends of the heavy cable have ring terminals which are fully tinned, crimped, and then soldered. The lower terminal goes around one of four 1/2" bronze bolts through the bottom of the boat in the area of the swing keel pivot. Those bolts are interconnected in pairs fore and aft with 3/4"x1-1/2"x18" bronze bars under the boat. The bronze bars are electrically connected athwartships by the keel pivot hardware.

Each bronze bar is protected from corrosion by two 3/4"x1-1/2"x3" sacrificial zinc anodes, one at each end of the bar. The zincs are thu-bolted, and connected to the 1/2" bronze bolts in the bilges with #10 fully tinned wire ending in tinned, crimped, and soldered ring terminals.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2004 : 16:13:00

Tom
I sail my C25 WK/TR on Payette Lake, elv. 5000' in central Idaho. Thunderstorms are frequent. I am really more concerned about lightning than wind ( I can do something about the wind but not about the lightning.) I have extensively researched the subject and have discovered that there really isn't much good data available. Florida State U probably has done the most research. The best paper I found on the subject was by an engineer who designs lightning systems for tall buildings and also owns a 25' sailboat in Fla. He recommends not having a lightning system on a boat in the 25+- range and does not have one on his boat. According to his paper, a lightning system is basically a lightning attractor. He stated that the corona produced by a medium sized boat will kill or severely maim anyone close to it. His point is a 25 footer isn't big enough for the protection offered by a lightning system. Larger yachts do typically have them however.. I really don't know if this is right or wrong but it seems to make sense and this engineer does have credentials. My lightning system is my eyes. If I'm out and it starts popin I get in and go sit in the bar!!

Andy Anderson
"45 North" C25 WK/TR #5608
MHYC, McCall, Idaho

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2004 : 17:53:24

Yesterday, I wish I had a wide angle lens.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2004 : 21:49:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 Tom
I sail my C25 WK/TR on Payette Lake, elv. 5000' in central Idaho. Thunderstorms are frequent. I am really more concerned about lightning than wind ( I can do something about the wind but not about the lightning.) I have extensively researched the subject and have discovered that there really isn't much good data available. Florida State U probably has done the most research. The best paper I found on the subject was by an engineer who designs lightning systems for tall buildings and also owns a 25' sailboat in Fla. He recommends not having a lightning system on a boat in the 25+- range and does not have one on his boat. According to his paper, a lightning system is basically a lightning attractor. He stated that the corona produced by a medium sized boat will kill or severely maim anyone close to it. His point is a 25 footer isn't big enough for the protection offered by a lightning system. Larger yachts do typically have them however.. I really don't know if this is right or wrong but it seems to make sense and this engineer does have credentials. My lightning system is my eyes. If I'm out and it starts popin I get in and go sit in the bar!!

Andy Anderson
"45 North" C25 WK/TR #5608
MHYC, McCall, Idaho
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This information is in my opinion at least, entirely correct. I've designed quite a few lightning arrestor systems for power plants as well as high voltage distribution systems and switchgear. The corona from a lightning strike will extend a substantial distance from the conductors and in a boat as small as ours, there's simply no safe place to hide. Lightning arresting systems will, in fact, increase the likelyhood of a strike but are designed to harmlessly dissipate their effects. I don't think these design criteria can be achieved for a 25 foot sailboat. Others may disagree.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 07:52:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Lightning arresting systems will, in fact, increase the likelyhood of a strike but are designed to harmlessly dissipate their effects. I don't think these design criteria can be achieved for a 25 foot sailboat. Others may disagree.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen this issue debated back and forth here and in the sailing magazines and on the docks for almost 30 years, and have never seen a definitive conclusion. We all just have to make our own decisions. For me, I have not installed a lightning protection system on my boat, but try to get off the boat when lightning is around. Locally, I've only known of 2 boats ever hit by lightning, and neither boat was occupied. One was sunk (a transducer was blown out) and the other was not. Both were repaired.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/26/2004 08:03:45

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 09:29:19

Mark, I've read advice about moving away from all metallic equpiment that would serve as a conductor. If the corona extends beyond the length of our boats, is it possible to survive a lightning strike?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 10:36:41

For me, lightning is scarier than high winds, driving rain, and/or crashing seas combined, because there are things you can actively do in those conditions, but there is little seamanship one can do with lightning.

Once I was out sailing with my brother-in-law on a rather typical summer night. The night was pleasant with some clouds and a light warm breeze, but a little after midnight, off in the distance, we started to hear rumblings coming from above. We made the decision to head in before things got worse, when lightning started appearing off in the distance. We weren't too concerned since the lightning was well inland and still very far off, but to be prudent we dropped the sails and fired up the motor to make a beeline for the marina. It wasn't very long before lightning started striking closer to us, but even though it was still off in the distance, I was thinking I couldn't get back to the marina fast enough.

With the thunder getting louder, we cruised in the direction of the marina when all of a sudden lightning started hitting off in the distance on one side of the boat. Next, it started hitting on the other side of the boat, then in front of us!

With us now in the middle of some serious stuff, we cranked the outboard for max speed, huddled far forward in the cockpit to put as much distance between us and the backstay, and for the next half hour we had a rather tense ride back to the marina as lightning flashed like paparazzi cameras on the red carpet.

We made it back safely and the show was over as we pulled into the slip, but for a brief period out on the open water, I thought things weren't going to turn out so nicely.

Anyway, I, like Steve, have never seen a definitive answer to having lightning protection on a boat but I'm inclined not to have any because the way I see it is, a grounded mast on the open water would be like a well grounded tree in a vast field...Would you want to hide under that tree during a lightning storm?

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 12:10:34

Guys
I think about the lightning issue much like all of the other things that Poseidon and Aeolus can do to me if I've offended them .... by being stupid when I'm on my boat. I don't think Mother Nature's Gods will cut me any slack for being ignorant.
That's why this forum is so important to all of us... newbe's and old salts alike. I think one of the best things about sailing is there is always more to learn.
I use the same philosophy with sailing as I have as an ex-navel avaitor and civil pilot for the past 34 years. Know your limitations (honestly), test them (to learn), but never exceed them (willfully). And, NEVER let your ego rule the situation.

Andy Anderson
"45 North" C25 WK/TR #5608
MHYC McCall, Idaho

Edited by - on

bsmudd
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 12:16:40

Speaking of lightning, what about lightning when the boat is on land? I was working on my boat last week in Solomon's MD and crawled inside during a afternoon t-storm. A bolt of lightning hit within the boat yard- if not my actual boat. I felt something, but definitely wasn't electrocuted (I think).

Is a sailboat more dangerous to lightning on land?

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 12:37:19

... I use the same philosophy with sailing as I have as an ex-navel avaitor ... - Andy

Hey Arlyn ... 'got room on the blooper page for a flying bellybutton?

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 15:05:53

Yikes!!
No excuses... I'm not only an ex... but have a degree in journalism... still can't proof read or spell!!

sorry
Andy

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TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 15:23:04

I wonder if a sailboat is safer while underway, rather than at anchor. Could voltage travel down the anchor rode to ground?

Tom

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 22:17:21

Lightning can do just about anything it wants, for example it can strike you right on the mellon and leave you unharmed or it can strike the pitcher's mound and kill or maim the whole infield. A properly designed lightning arrestor system for a sailboat will include grounding conductors for all of the chainplates, stantions, pulpit, pushpit as well as the mast. In the event of a strike there will be a lot of voltage and it's accompanying corona bouncing around between all the conductors and since our boats are so small in volume, the odds aren't good that a safe refuge can be found. It's relatively easy to design and install an arrestor system for a building, for example the gounding conductor must be as straight as possible without any inappropriate bends and a minimum of spliced connections. To accomplish this on a small boat is, in my opinion, not really possible for a consistantly reliable system. Lightning will actually exit the conductors where it encounters sharp bends. The guys who designed the lightning arrestor system for the space shuttle launch facility designed one for their Columbia 23. Natually it was hit and the bottom blew out.

There's really no right way to do it. That being said, some individuals have hooked a large zinc fish to a set of battery jumper cables, connected the other end to one of their shrouds, tossed the zinc overboard, and survived a direct strike without damage or personal harm.

Edited by - oldsalt on 05/26/2004 22:33:57

Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2004 : 22:33:04

Lightning can do most anything, as was noted earlier. However, there is a typical pattern on an ungrounded boat. The lightning will come down the mast or a stay. When the charge hits the bolts or other fasteners at the end of the mast or side stay, it will tend to spray out of an sharp edges. This ususally means a burst of smaller arcs inside the boat. They will head toward the water line. Lots of small boats are found sunk at their mooring with dozens of small holes blown through around the water line. The boat will be burning while slowly sinking because of all the interior stuff that got ignited when the flash when through the interior.

I have seen an O'Day 23 after it was raised from being sunk at a mooring. Pretty ugly inside, but mostly from the fire while it sank.

There are lots of cases where this pattern is not followed. Often the strike hits the water around the outside of the boat instead of through the hull. Insulation is not an issue here. The arc just jumped several thousand feet through the air, 3/8" inch of fiberglass is not going to slow it down.

G. Jackson

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2004 : 09:02:53

To protect myself and boat from lightning, I haul a 2-iron (golf club) up the main mast as far as it can go.

Because as every golfer knows, even God can't hit a 2-iron.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2004 : 12:56:06

I think the quote, attributed Lee Trevino, involves a one iron. Makes no difference to me: I can't hit any of them.

Brooke

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2004 : 13:08:22

Wasn't Lee Trevino one of the 3 golfers struck by lightning a few years back. Maybe God doesn't like being challenged

Derek

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