Association Forum - Proper Racing Whisker Pole, What Side DW

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Proper Racing Whisker Pole, What Side DW

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

Member Avatar

USA
353 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/11/2004 : 11:22:38

OK Guys, I have to settle this one once and for all for my fleet racing members. I have always practiced when running down wind, the whisker pole must fly on the opposite side as the main! But my new racing buddies disagree. I know as the race committee chairman I can make this rule apply by agreement among the committee. So My questions are, 1. What are the Catalina 25/250 racing rules on this ruling, and two what other offical publication will back up my position that the whisker pole is flow opposite down wind? Or have I been wrong for 30 years?

Bill Meinert

Bill Meinert
Commodore
Sailing Longwind #1408

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 12:42:22

If you're running a genoa out, it would be on the same side as the boom, unless you are running "Wing on Wing", which isn't very fast, so most racers don't do it. With a spinnaker and spinnaker pole it's on the opposite side from the boom.

Why limit people by making it a rule? Let them fly it how they see fit. I'd have a problem with a race committee that made me run "Wing on Wing" and wouldn't let me broad reach with the pole on the same side as the boom.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 13:19:55

Bill, if you've been wrong for 30 years, so have I. I have always understood that, whenever the boom was on the same side of the boat as the whisker pole, the pole had to come down. I've never seen the rule, and can't direct you to it, but I'm also hoping someone has the correct answer.

Derek and I disagree on whether it's faster to run dead downwind or to reach. I have found that, when you reach up a few degrees, our C-25s don't accelerate enough to compensate for the increased distance that you have to travel. Dead downwind is slow, but it's faster than the alternative. By comparison, a good, lightweight racing boat accelerates easily when you reach up a few degrees, and the increase in speed more than makes up for the added distance that you have to travel. If our boats were designed more like a J24, I would agree with Derek.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 13:55:32

Ok then, what will be the guidlines for our up coming Nationals? The last two or three I was in limited same side whisker poles. What will the National's RC say this year? Better yet, do we need to make a "class rule" like the San Jaun 23's do?

Bill Meinert

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 14:12:16

If memory serves me correctly, until the last change in the U.S. Sail Racing Rules, a whisker pole could only be flown on the side opposite the boom. Since the rules revision in 2001 (they do this after every Olympics) you can now fly it on the same side as the boom. I don't have my rule book handy so I can't quote "chapter & verse"

Derek
P.S. To Steve - several years ago my foredeck crew dropped the whisker pole overboard as we rounded the leeward mark. We had to sail 2 more downwind legs in a very competitive PHRF Fleet. Without a pole I had to sail the angles while the fleet went dead downwind - every time we crossed the fleet we had increased our lead and won the race handily. Since then I will NEVER go dead downwind - even in a C25 it is slower to the mark than a very broad reach.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 15:35:45

Let me try to "broach" this downwind topic with the RC. I will see them tomorrow morning at a fleet meeting. We have lots to cover, but I will TRY to remember to ask this question. As far as I am concerned, you could fly the dang thing anyway you wanted to (I suggest you use it upwind, Bill! ;) ) as long as you don't exceed the max length of the pole, which memory tells me is 16' 3" and maybe a fraction. I mean, if somebody chose to try to go upwind with an asymmetric chute, who's to tell them they can't try it?

BTW: On a similar subject, in PHRF races, I have seen guys pole out the asymmetric in very light air. That can't be "illegal", can it? I never have seen it addressed anywhere, certainly not on the C25/250 site.

Bill, I have down here on the registration materials that you are a spinnaker boat. Is that correct?

PHRF numbers will be in effect to try to "equalize" boats with chutes, asyms, and NFS, but no dacron headsail larger than a 155.

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain
Commodore of Vice
s/v Encore! #685

PS: John Mason: I have tried to contact you. I thought you were coming down to race with me on the river. The offer is still open. Spring Series on Thursday nights, beercans on Fridays...just let me know. I sure hope you are still planning on coming to the Nationals. It should be a hoot! Please keep in touch.

Edited by - Gary B. on 06/11/2004 15:37:59

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 15:51:39

Derek, I've also "sailed the angles" downwind and gained a lot of time on other boats, but when you do that, you are also searching for the strongest winds and favorable windshifts, and that increases your speed and shortens the time to your objective. The boats that are sailing wing-and-wing are relatively limited in their ability to maneuver in search of better winds. They take whatever the wind gods give them. I'm not saying that it's always faster to run downwind than to broad reach. I'm saying that you should broad reach if you think the increase in speed and the better winds, combined, will get you to the objective quicker.

A number of times, I have alternately broad reached in the lulls and gybed over and run downwind in the puffs, and made great gains against my opponents. In other words, I don't just set the pole and sail the whole downwind leg wung out. I run when running is fast, and reach when reaching is fast. Neither course is always the fastest.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/11/2004 15:55:19

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2004 : 16:08:42

Hey Gary,
Still working out the details. Was about to cancel out due to the fact that my wife's mother passed away, which necessitates a trip to Europe (that's where she lived) for my wife. That has been postponed until November, not sure I understand why, but...it requires diverting some of the discretionary funds.

I'll forge ahead on the Nationals plan and find a way to make it work out, registration is going in the mail today.

Would June 17th be open for racing with you? I'll come down then, if that's okay.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 00:17:50

June 17th is a Thursday, right? That would be great. We start the summer series that night. I may have the heavy Yamaha on board that night, because the next day I am delivering her 65 miles down river to Cathlamet for the "Round Puget Island Race" on Saturday....silly me. Need the big Yammy 9.9 to get home! I will plan on you coming. Encore! is on D-35 at Tomahawk Marina on Tomahawk Island (which is due E. of Hayden Island by causeway/road). It is E. of the Safeway store on the E. side of I-5.

Take the first, Jantzen Beach, exit S. of the I-5 bridge, go to the stoplight. Do not go straight into the Mall, but turn LEFT, circle south under the freeway and follow the U heading N. again to the stoplight. Safeway will be on your R. Hang a left at the only real intersection, go past the firehouse on your R, and keep going E. and follow your nose past the S curve at Tomahawk Marina. The gate by the first buildings is always open that time of evening. I try to leave by 5:30; racing at 6:30, but always things to do....My number is 360 687 2048 and cell is 360 721 3468. Call if you want/need. I think the website has a map of sorts and directions to Tomahawk if you want/need a visual.

I will be looking for you..

Sorry to hear about the family loss. It's tough, I know. Glad you are still doing this event, though. We all might have passed on before it ever gets out to this area again!

Regards, Gary B.
s/v Encore! # 685

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 10:29:47

Hi Bill,

Derek is correct. There used to be a rule declaring that whisker poles had to be flown on the side of the boat opposite from the boom. That rule was dropped several years ago - allowing the pole to be used on either side without restriction.

As far as using a pole on a assym spinniker goes, our sailing club here does not restrict that. The racing divisions are for NFS (no flying headsails) or FS (flying headsails). If a skipper registers as NFS, all headsails MUST be attached to the headstay by at least eight hanks evenly spaced along the headsail's luff (luff tape qualifies of course). If the skipper registers the boat as FS, then the boat can fly spinnakers of any persuasion. Poles may or may not be used with the spinnakers as the skipper deams best.

To prevent clever skippers from using extra long poles on their spinnakers, the spinnaker pole is attached by definition to the sail's tack corner and the whisker pole is attached to the sail's clew corner. Max pole length applies to each so we don't have skippers using an extra long pole on the spinnaker's tack.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 16:28:39

I asked the Nationals RC today at our Fleet meet. No problem with flying the pole on either side the boat, nor with whisker pole on an assym, as long as neither pole exceeds the One Design limit. Not an issue......

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 20:23:28

Bill,

I'm curious how your fleet handles the use of drifters which often only have 4 hanks. Under your rules would you be able to pole out the Cruising spinnaker from the clew like a genoa in which case what would be the maximum length of the pole?

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 22:35:58

Ray, It would seem to me that if the rules say a genoa must have 8 hanks, and your drifter has 4, that it would rate as a "flying" sail. Since the tack is at the stem fitting, any pole would be on the clew, and so a 16' 3" pole would be acceptable. If it is a spinnaker with the pole attached at the TACK of the sail, it can only be 10'5". That's the difference.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
Encore!

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2004 : 23:35:08

Thanks Gary, I think I'm getting it. Basically it doesn't matter what you call the sail, if you attach the pole to the clew it's a whisker pole and can be 16'3". Attach it to the tack and it can be 10'5".
According to the "c25 rules" a headsail only needs to be attached with 4 evenly spaced hanks. To me all of this means that if you have a drifter that is 155% or less then it could be used in non spinnaker races. If it were greater then 155% it could be counted as one of the spinnakers in a race that allows spinnakers. Am I on the right track?

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 00:16:58

That's how I would interpret it, yes.....now make sure your drifter does not exceed the maximum girth for spinnakers! ;) Little chance of that, I think.....mostly kiddin"

Gary B.

Hey, folks, Ray is the guy who has done such a great job on the Fleet 94 site.....he's the man!

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.