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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Shallow water sailor

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mfasis
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114 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/13/2004 : 01:48:32

I just recently purchased a '82 Catalina 25 and I am thrilled to find a wealth of knowledge such as this forum.

How much water does my swing keel draw when up?

Mark Britton
Huntington, NY
'82 C25 FK/SR #3202
"Good News"

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 07:57:16

Supposed to be 2 feet 8 inches, probably more like 2 feet 10 inches at the keel, unfortunately your rudder probably draws about 3 feet 2 or 3 inches depending on trim and the number of people on your boat at the time. This is why most of the boats have dsamage to the rudder gudgeons and pintles. I saw the suckers off 2 feet 8 inches from the water line or 5 feet 3 inches LOA and then the rudder is a lot safer from harm. I add an end plate that is 6 inches wide and even with the front of the rudder. Sticks out the back a couple inches. Works good. Also makes a nice extra step. Dave

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 08:09:39

I like the fact that the rudder is a few inches deeper than the keel: it warns me when I'm about to run aground. Several times I've grounded the rudder in mud, but freed the boat by temporarily removing the rudder and powering off.

Brooke

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 08:46:38

You have been lucky so far but think whats going to happen when you are going fast, there is a rock in the mud, and you are unfortunate enough to hit it with that rudder. Hang on to the tiller tight cause your hand will be the only connection between the rudder and the boat. BTDT not pretty. Catalina has provided a substantial part of my income for years building boats where the deepest part is the rudder. Its dumb. The last 36 rudder I got was finally redesigned to be shallower than the keel.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 09:23:13

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I saw the suckers off <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> There are better choices than that. Shortening the rudder will cause you to lose control of the boat sooner when the boat heels excessively. The better solutions are to (1) get a depth sounder, and use it whenever you are in waters of questionable depth, and (2) slow down when in such waters.

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Kidless
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 11:20:03

Congrats on getting your boat, great choice.
My wife and I remove our rudder so we can back into shallow water up to the beach, then we can use the ladder to to step into about thigh hi water and walk to shore. You'll learn which beaches are steep enough to back up to. Without the rudder I anchor in 4' and I know I'm safe. We lost a rudder getting washed on shore by a passing boats wake. We replace it with a ballanced rudder.
My web page has alot of pics of anchoring close to shore.

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 12:11:06

Steve, The difference is trival compared to being suddenly without a rudder altogether. If you never are inatentive or unlucky the deep rudder is fine but its still dumb to design a boat where the rudder is the first thing to hit the bottom. If it was a swinging blade dingy type that would be one thing but it isn't. It would also be better if the gudeons and pintles were alot heavier, the transom stronger, and the blade stronger but they are not( on most boats mine are). When we were looking for our Cat the most often replaced or repaired item on all the boats we looked at including the one we bought was the rudder. You haven't really enjoyed sailing until you have tried it without one (rudder)either. The boats do not heel out much and I guessing that even with the rudder shortened the blow out would not occur until within a degree or two of when it would let go at full depth. The end plate would help alot too. The last Cat 36 I replaced the rudder on was thrown onto a channel edge by two big power boats and all the depth finder watching in the world would not have prevented it from happening. In that case the stock, 3 1/2 inch stainless tube, bent to the point that the steeering jammed completely and the boat could only go in small circles. Fortunate ly the situation after the accident did not get more complicated but it sure could have. You have good control and generally plenty of warning to avoid situations where the boat heels so much that you lose control but groundings(at speed) generally come as a complete suprise. Kidless, which part failed when you lost your rudder? Dave

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mfasis
Navigator

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114 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 12:49:30

My last boat was a Windrose 24. It was a great boat but to much of a day sailer. One of its best features though was a kick-up rudder. Is there anything similar available for a Catlina 25?

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 14:23:38

I like to race my boat a bit, so sawing off the rudder had never occurred to me! I have learned to always keep my swinger down (in my experience, the only time to raise it is to launch the boat, get off a sandbar, or maybe 'creep" close to shore.....

With the keel down, the rudder is much more protected, and it becomes my "curb feeler" for shallow water, although I watch the depth sounder all the time.......I HIGHLY recommend keeping the SK DOWN at all times, except when you have to raise it.....

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 16:25:11

Gary, I think that you are right for your boat, if you always keep the keel full down, or if you have the fin keel on your boat this would make no sense. But if you muck about in shallow water with the swing keel raised or if you have, as we do, a wing. The rudder as built is a problem. I suppose you could even house the swing keel in a real full tilt grounding and still be going fast enough to break the rudder off. I'm in my late 50's and built my first boat about when I could first drive. Since then I designed and built a lot of different boats and I don't say either, I'm positive that this will happen or work, or you must do it my way. One of my favorite expessions is, its your boat do whatever, however, you want. We sail and cruise in a lot of places where the water is spread very thin. I happen to think that those are mostly the best places to be. So grounding is a more or less regular occurance for us . All that aside, Catalina in the 70's, 80's,and 90's designed boats with fin keels, built the same hulls with swing and wing keels that were shallower, and put the same rudders on all of them. Most people, if they have trouble at all, find out in a very unpleasant manner just how dangerous this can be. I've cut the rudders of a bunch of boats and nobody has ever said that they even noticed a difference. A tiny increase in rudder angle would produce much more turning force than the bottom 3 ore 4 inches of the rudder where the flow is splilling from one side to the other anyway because they do not have an endplate .Have you noticed that all the high performance boats that can have an end plate or bulb on keels do. Works for rudders too. BTW when the boat goes out of control due to excessive heel it realy doesn't matter what the rudder is doing. Its so horizontal and close to the surfaceand ventilated that its effect is minimal. What slews the boat around is the windage or drive of the rig and the rudder is nearly irrelavent. Dave

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Kidless
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 17:22:56

Hi Dave,
The edge of the rudder where the pintle bolts go through.
Both sets, but we were pushed hard against the shore.
No matter what boat to shore contact isn't good. We just got a nice dinghy.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 18:46:24

Got that right, hows your dingy, sounds like this ought to be on another web site. Dave

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mfasis
Navigator

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114 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2004 : 22:06:09

Thanks for all the great input. Does anyone have any pictures of a kickup rudder on a Cat 25?

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km0e
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2004 : 06:41:05

I use my rudder to locate stumps in the cove that my keel missed.

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2004 : 12:32:53

You are right, of course, Dave. I missed that fact that you had a wing. Also, you are right in that the keel SHOULD be lower than the rudder, in that case, to protect the relatively fragile rudder. Sorry I went on about the swinger down. Last week I moved a friend's 25 swing from the launch ramp to his moorage. I had to pass by shallow water. When I realized that the depth sounder wasn't reading, I immediatly put the keel down on his swinger to protect the rudder in case of grounding.

Gee, I guess with all the "anti-swing" sentiment that appears from time to time on this forum, they have some good advantages after all! I am glad I have the swinger, personally.

BTW: I have never gone to the "balanced" rudder either. I prefer "feeling the road" as a preference to power steering in cars, too!

Good luck in the "thin" water. Sorry for wasting your time, Dave.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! SK/SR #685 (and happy with it)

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2004 : 20:57:51

Dave you are NOT alone. Aside from my feeling, mentioned previously on this site, that the rudder should be shortened and have an endplate, both Bruce Bingham and Phil Bolger use and advocate end plates. Bingham put an end plate on the KEEL of his liveaboard cruiser, as well. Bolger once wrote that he put an end plate on a shoal water cruiser years ago, and it worked so well he never designs them any other way since then. The only reason Orion doesnt have one yet is I haven't reached that far down on THE LIST. Fair winds, ron srsk SW FL

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mfasis
Navigator

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114 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 11:07:22

Thanks for all the great input. Does anyone have any pictures of a kickup rudder on a Cat 25?

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 11:45:48

I've never seen one. There generally is no reason to have one since you can just shorten yours to suit and kick up rudders introduce a whole nuther series of problems. Dave

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