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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

rudder spliting

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barmstro
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/17/2004 : 04:16:08

I'm looking to buy a 1979 c25,it's rudder has a split running all the way around it.Om my c22 that would be bad news however the seller informs me that this is a form core balenced rudder and becuase it dosn't have the wood core it is not going to split or brake. Is this true or should I but a new rudder. Also the rigging has turn barrels and not turn buckles like my c22.Is this the orginal rigging and becuase it would be 25 years old should I replace it. Other wise the rigging looks good and so does the rest of the boat

Bob Armstrong 1979 c25 SK/SR #1119 GoodTide'ngs II
Federal way Wa.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 08:40:01

The barrel-type shroud adjusters probably mean it's the original 1979 rigging. Look at the swages, you may see a slight tinge of orange color where the wire goes into the swage. If you see this color, it means the wire is corroding in there. Best to replace shrouds ASAP. If the rudder is starting to split, water has gotten into the core and will continue to do so. Weight the rudder; if it feels like it weighs more than about 20 pounds, it is probably not a foam-cored rudder unless it is full of water. A fully saturated rudder, whether foam or plywood core, will weigh 50 pounds or more (water is heavy). The seller is wrong in telling you that the foam core rudder "won't split or break". Any rudder with a molding seam around it can eventually split along the seam from wear and tear, excessive loading, or water penetration. The newest Catalina rudders are somehow being manufactured without a visible seam, and these are supposed to be the "ultimate" rudder, but I have seen these only on new Cat 250's and Cat 22 Mk. II's, not on any older Cat 25.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 08:45:06

Bob,
Determining if it is a balanced rudder isn't a hard thing to do. The standard rudder has its leading edge form a straight line sighted down the pintles whereas the balanced rudder has a portion of the leading edge forward of the line sighted down the pintles. There are several sketches in the archives of both models

Having said that I don't believe either rudder benefits from a crack running around the rudder halves. Understand that where the two halves of the rudder meet a line formed by the joint of the two is normal. What isn't normal is if that joint is separating.

Val on Calista # 3936
Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:00:34

I would try this site and see if they have a balanced rudder for the Catalina 25.

http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 10:56:08

One cause of a crack like that (maybe not in WA) is freezing of moisture in the foam core. Another I've heard of is heat from sun on bottom paint when the boat is on the hard. Otherwise, moisture shouldn't make foam expand as it does wood. I store my rudder inside for the winter.

Many C-25s sail for years with a split seam on the rudder, but if you sail in much chop (which impacts the rudder laterally when you're heeling), you should be wary. The critical point is where the lower pintle attaches. At a minimum, I'd use glass tape and epoxy at least from the lower pintle area, around the bottom, and up the back to the waterline, and then expoxy in the crack above that (after letting it dry over the winter).

Catalina Direct sells the new, balanced rudder (for less now than they charged me

) When the core is dry, it's so light it actually tries to float off the gudgeons! Mine is totally dry after three seasons. (Note to self: Find wood and knock.)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 11:20:01

This is a picture of a balanced rudder with seam splits all around. It seems common on these rudders. This boat is so poorly maintained that I cannot tell if these have not been fixed because they don't need to be or from neglect. I would route them and fill them if it were me.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 14:06:04

Man, I'm gonna be pi$$ed if mine does that!

Frank: Do you suppose it froze?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 14:43:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Man, I'm gonna be pi$$ed if mine does that!

Frank: Do you suppose it froze?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It could have but it is incredibly uniform, you would think water would migrate down and the ice would split it low. It looks more like a curing over time thing to me.

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 15:51:28

Looks like the boat in the pics has not done the upgrade to thru-bolt his gudgeons. If he is sailing with the balanced rudder, he is putting more lateral stress on the pintles and gudgeons (that force has to go somewhere) and should really upgrade. IMNSHO!

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

barmstro
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 18:46:49

Seller claims to have new gudgens. the split is the same as showen above. thanks for all the helo. It is a good price for the boat but ui'm going to offer a little less because of the shrouds and rudder

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 20:38:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jwilliams
 Looks like the boat in the pics has not done the upgrade to thru-bolt his gudgeons.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Does somebody have gudgeons that aren't thru-bolted? I've never heard of that.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 21:00:35

Bob: I forgot to mention a couple of opinions (something the others here will assure you I have plenty of...)

1. If you think you're going to buy, get a marine survey. Even though $3-400 might seem like a big portion of the price, it will give you lots of information and some valuable peace of mind.

2. Those stays are likely to be original--way too old in a saltwater environment. If you do buy, contact Catalina Direct (catalinadirect.com) about getting a replacement kit with bronze, open-body turnbuckles. With off-the-shelf standing rigging sets, they'll beat the price of a custom job by quite a bit.

3. While you're talking to CD, get their C-25 Owner's Handbook ($10). It's full of information and upgrades. While it's largely their catalog, most people here will attest that it's worth the ten-spot.

All the best--split rudder or not, you're looking at one of the best values in the small cruiser market. The company still supports the boat, and third parties like Catalina Direct are invaluable.

And welcome to the best support organization in sailing! The quality of this forum certainly helped to sell me on the C-25!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/17/2004 21:14:51

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2004 : 14:55:22

My rudder is the original non-balanced. It has that uniform dark line all around it. On mine it's just the molding seam. Completely intact, with no cracks.

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Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:42:23

I am the seller of the above discuss '79 C-25. The perspective buyer did even unship the rudder to inspect it. If it were cracked I would have represented it as such. It is not!! It is simply the ground off joint where the two halves of the rudder were bonded together and then ground off. It (the rudder) has never spent more than the summer months in the water since new in 1993, is stored in a heated basement in the winter and is light a as a feather. I not only claimed that the boat has the heavy duty guedgons, but personally installed them 2 years ago. Buyer never looked to see if they were the newer version. Since the perspective buyer feels I have misrepresented the particulars of the boat, it is still available at $6800.00. Anyone interested may e-mail me for details on the boat.

Steve Kostanich C-25 Equinox 1119 sr/sk

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2004 : 22:40:04

Sounds like a well kept boat at a good price.

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 16:05:39

Oh, heck, if that's the boat being discussed, it's in great shape. Sits right next to mine at Swantown Marina. Steve keeps it well maintained.

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 23:22:48

Much is often made of "cracks" in C25 rudders, both balanced and old-style. My C25 has a crack down the leading edge of the rudder, had the same crack when I bought it seven years ago, and will likely have it when I sell the boat. It bears watching, but on a boat that spends only five months out of the year in the water (like Steve's, the rudder spends the winter in my basement), the cracks on my face are of vastly greater concern to me.

Also of greater concern is the upper gudgeon. Any C25 that does not have an inspection plate installed so that the upper gudgeon bolts can be checked for tightness every month during the season should undertake this modification as soon as possible. I lost my upper gudgeon in a six knot tide and a brewing storm four years ago (in Gloucester, Mass, site of the "Perfect Storm"--though the book is anything but).

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