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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

General comments about swing vs wing keels?

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Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/22/2004 : 09:56:44

We are looking to buy a Cat 25 swing or wing. Any comments on pros and cons? I've seen comments about the depth of the rudder vs swing keel and not sure if the wing give any benefit there (2 inch more).

We sail East of New Bern NC and is gets shallow so I like to "feel" (as in curb feeler)of a swing but there are more moving parts too.

Just looking for any pains felt.

Thanks.

Scooter
C25 '89 SR/WK #5878 "Square Knot"
Vandemere NC.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:15:57

I think there's a general consensus that the Wing is overall the better boat... with the late model (89) wing being the 'ultimate' C25.

IMHO disclaimer.... That said, there's really nothing wrong with a WELL MAINTAINED swinger, especially in fresh water. If the bushings, keel pin, cable system and fit of the keel to the trunk are all proper you shouldn't have any issues. Primary worry in salt water is failure of the swaged fitting on the end of the keel cable. Next haul-out, I'm going to retrofit a sta-lok or Norseman fitting there.

Edited by - on

f_sondergaard
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:35:27

We have done both in the shallows of the NC coast. Our 25, a 1982 was a swing, we did the wing conversion kit about three years ago. We love the wing. The swing was ok, ours was the old cast iron and was literally falling apart was we decided to go with the conversion kit. If you decide to go with the wing there is one that has recently gone up for sale at our marina in Southport. I think its an 1989 with an indoard diesel. Fair winds!
Jason and Fran
1982 Catalina 25
swing to wing

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:56:41

The wing is probably the best compromise between stability, pointing ability and shallow draft since there are no mechanical systems to maintain or worry about. I have a lead fin which I'm very satisfied with but if I sailed in thin water or trailered, I'd definitely choose the wing over the other alternatives.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:01:00

I sail a swinger in the Chesapeake, and have had no problems. Regular maintenance is a must. That being said, if I had the choice between buying a swing or a wing, I would surely buy the wing.

Brooke

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:07:54

Hi Scooter

I sail out of Matthews Point on Club Foot Creek and some days it seems that the thing I do best is go aground. I LOVE my swing keel and would not change it for any other model in our sailing area. It is a fast stable boat and having the swing allows me to be careless at times without having to get wet!

I do all of my maintenance and have a trailer that helps in that process. I will be glad to give you a tour or look at any boat with you so just let me know. I am also close to starting a Fleet in the area so now is a good time to buy!

svmoxie at hotmail dot com

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 16:02:22

As between the swinger and the wing, the swinger is a bit faster and will slightly outpoint the wing. The swinger is more mechanically complicated and must be conscientiously maintained. By comparison, the wing is low maintenance. If grounded, the swinger is easier to get free. The wing tends to bury itself and creates strong suction, and it can be very difficult to get free. Other than that, the two versions are very comparable. You'll enjoy either one.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 16:59:26

Before buying the 250 I looked at 25's. The repeated advice for meticulous maintenance on the swing is not just crucial, it's a matter of life and death.

Remember that the keel is several inches thick and made out of cast iron, it's around 1500 lbs.That's a big hunk o' metal hanging on four bolts, that go into threads embedded in the fiberglass, and a piece of wire, banging around in a pretty forceful environment.

If the pennant fails through manufacturing defect or corrosion, or in rough seas and shallow water when the keel hits bottom and is brought all the way up and then immediately released way down, the stresses on the forward end of the keel are such that the box can damage. Damage to the area aft of the keel can happen if the pin fails, and the keel drops from the forward end, especially with the keel up. The boat can sink quickly. There are numerous documented instances of this happening, some even in dock as the result of a wake.

I don't like to paint a dark picture, but that scenario was one I did not want to have to worry about. The Outer Banks, shallow in many places, salt (corrosion), with at times a good sized chop would IMHO not be an area to take a swinger into. An inland lake is a different story.

I know many will disagree with me. They consider the above scenario remote and an acceptable risk.

Oscar
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - Oscar on 06/22/2004 20:21:30

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 17:24:43

As one who loves his swing (I believe the correct weight is 1500 lbs., Oscar), I think the swing would be fine for sailing Albemarle Sound and the contribuing rivers. I would not take it past the barrier islands. Mine is a great boat for the Chesapeake, but I wouldn't take it past Cape Henry except for a daysail on a fair day. I've been in five foot seas on the Bay and the keel never pounded, but I wouldn't do that as a rule. Besides, it's not a lot of fun.

Brooke

Edited by - on

RC
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 17:37:28

I purchased a swing keel ("new" 250 2002 water ballast model) in January 2004 and put it in the water (south Florida) for the first time in March. This May, the wire that attaches to the swing keel snapped. It appears to have been caused by rust. The Broker claimed the Catalina no longer makes a wire replacement part for the swinged keel and sent me a rope line replacement, which is what is currently on my boat. I have submitted the rusted out wire (and warranty claim) to the broker who has (allegedly) passed it on to Catalina.

Needless to say, not thrilled about swing keels as to these kind of issues. However, nothing beats lifting up the swing keel when you encounter an unexpected shoal or shallow area. Can't do that with a wing. For now, I am sticking with the swing but may switch over to a fixed keel in the future. Hopefully, I don't suffer from a spontaneous sinking!

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 19:51:41

RC, you can get a wire pennant from Catalina Direct. The claim that Catalina would no longer support a two year old boat sounds bogus to me.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:17:59

RC, the swinger we were discussing was the C-25......big (1500lbs) and if abused dangerous piece of heavy metal. The 250 swinger carries it's ballast in the ballast tank. And although a pain, breaking the pennant on 150lb centerboard does not pose the same danger. The reason Catalina went to a (high tech) rope replacement is because it is more corrosion and crush resistant.

Oscar
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:18:41

I think Catalina switched from using wire to high-strength line for the centerboard... line is the 'updated' material. Shouldn't have any problems lifting the lightweight centerboard on a water ballasted boat.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:26:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The claim that Catalina would no longer support a two year old boat sounds bogus to me. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Brooke, I think what he's saying is that Catalina has stopped making wire replacement cables for the C250 WB. They are now making the cable out of rope, to make them more durable.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For now, I am sticking with the swing but may switch over to a fixed keel in the future. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> RC, I haven't heard any WB owners on the forum who felt the WB had any serious problems with the keel. The most common complaint I can remember is that the wire cable broke repeatedly, but, with the change to rope, those complaints seem to be declining. From my experience with Catalina, I'll be very surprised if they don't stand behind their warranty. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hopefully, I don't suffer from a spontaneous sinking! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That hasn't been a problem with C250s. That concern relates to C25 swing keels that haven't been properly maintained.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:29:17

I never found getting our 79 WK off a sand bar to be a problem as a matter of fact that is the way I cleaned the bottom and waxed the boat. Just run it aground at high tide, tie off the sides for safety and wait for the tide to go out. The boat just stood straight up and allowed for total access to clean and polish. When the tide came in and/or we got stuck, take off the rudder, start the engine and spin the boat around in a circle a couple of times and drive it out the way you came in. Re-hang the rudder, raise the sails and away you go.
I don't think I would try this with the new boat because the wing is a lot longer and not quite as stout. The wing on the C25 is a hugh chunck of lead and designed after the original Aussie Wing with wide heavy wings were as the the new wing is a blade type, thinner with narrow wings and I am not sure if it could stand the pressure and twist when turning with that much weight on it. I am sure one of these days I will be forced to find out, but I won't plan on doing it.
I agree with Oscar and can speak from experience, the wing does not point as well as the Swing or Fin to the tune of about 5-10 degrees. The higher the wind speed the better she points.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 21:41:50

I understood that Steve. What I don't understand is the idea that rope is more durable than wire. If it were, then why isn't Catalina and Catalina Direct selling rope pennant kits to all of us? Or, typically, am I missing something?

Brooke

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2004 : 00:02:40

Our C22 was a swing keel. We did bushing, pin, keel spacer kit, and winch cable upgrades or replacements. Never got rid of the clunk or hum. The cable also got stuck half way down once. There were also a couple of exciting swing keel moments were when we forgot to lower keel before raising sails.
Noeta is a fin keel. No noise, no muss, no fuss. I love it. I also love the fact the the lack of a keel trunk opens up some more floor space in the cabin and allows a traditional lay out.
Of course, there's a price for the fin: A monthly check to keep it floating. I also have the luxury of very deep water in our home waters

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 18:55:56

My C-25 standard rig, swing keel is a must have on Utah Lake. The lake is already getting low (our 6th year of drought), with a mean average depth of around 8-10 feet. The deepest part of the lake is 12 feet. I regularly get stuck, but as mentioned before, just raise the keel and continue to sail. However if I were on the coast, a fin keel would be a better choice. Having said that…since putting on the new 150 head sail, nothing on the lake is as fast, or points as high as Boaty. This includes a multihull, a Santana, a Capri 26, and a few other C-25. Fair winds. Todd Frye

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 01:09:32

"Deepest part of the lake is 12 feet"
Man. At low tide I think I got 30+ feet below the keel. In the bay my depth sounder gives up around 300 ft.
One good thing though- when you drop the regulator off the Magma, or the phone/ wrench/ winch/ etc. in 12 ft you can swim down for it.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 21:13:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Todd Frye
 ...with a mean average depth of around 8-10 feet. The deepest part of the lake is 12 feet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The tide goes up and down by that amount here...

In salt water (as around New Bern), I'd recommend the wing. The swinger is a more reasonable choice in fresh water, although maintenance is still important. Wings will generally cost more, because (1) most of them are newer, and (2) the older ones may have been retrofitted for a significant cost.

Good luck in your quest...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/26/2004 21:32:19

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