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My wing keel was installed wrong!

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:35:33

Well everyone, I heard from the guy diagnosing the problem with my keel. (Remember my boat was slowly taking on water up through the old swing keel pipe?) According to the mechanic (not sure what you call a fixer of boats), the guy in Vermillion who installed my wing keel this past March either didn't use ANY epoxy, or only used a small amount. My mechanic put the boat in the lift and filled the bildge with water and witnessed leaks coming out on boat sides of the keel. After grinding down around the seem to expose the seem, he told me he couldn't see where the wing keel installer used any epoxy. So basically the WK needs to be re-installed. That means another $2,000.00 or more. Ugh!!! The good thing that will help me sleep a little better was that the mechanic said it wasn't from anything I had done. Loading the boat on the trailer a bit off center, he said, should not have loosened the keel like that. When he had the boat in the lift, he could hear the keel separating.

Anyway, I think I'm going to have him do the repairs, rather than take it back up to the guy in Vermillion for a few reasons. First, I know this guy. He is local, he is a club member, and he has taken care of me in the past. Second, my local guy can have the boat back to me in three weeks. Third, I don't trust the guy in Vermilion. Fourth, if I take it up to the guy in Vermillion, I'm sure my season will be shot, because he was supposed to have installed the keel in November of last year, but because he doesn't have his own lift, couldn't do it until March.

I have a call into Catalina Yachts, and I left a voicemail for technical support to ask them to fax me the directions and to talk about what went wrong, in preparation for a meeting with an attorney. I'm pretty conflicted about what to do, but I want my boat back, and I want it done right! I'm very upset about this.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:56:11

Ben, I'm sorry to hear that the previous installer messed up your boat. If you can find an attorney who will take your case for a reasonable cost, that would be great, but if you can't, then you should be able to file a complaint yourself in small claims court with a good chance of success. The guy who is going to repair it should testify for you that the keel wasn't epoxied properly, and that meant that the new keel admitted water into the interior of the boat. It should be an easy case. Good luck.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:08:15

I'm sorry to hear about your problem and I hope you took plenty of photos to document how the work was originally done incorrectly. A photo of water leaking from the keel area when the bilge was filled with water and your boat was on the hard should help quite a bit.

As upset as you must be over this thank goodness that you didn't suffer some catastrophic failure out on the water. Good luck in recovering your loss from the inept installer.

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:32:01

Good Luck Ben

Hope you get back on the water soon................

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:12:24

Hi Ben,

Wow! That's awful.

Here's a link to an article that I wrote for the Mainsheet magazine some years ago after I helped Mike Leyden swap his swing keel for a wing keel. It pretty much follows a proper installation step-by-step. Make a copy for yourself and perhaps one for your local fellow.

Good luck.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:13:33

Woops. Here's the link.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/wingcon1.html

Bill

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:17:33

Ben,

Imagaine if the installer did use epoxy, but not enough . . . now that would be a real mess. I thought something was up with that guy when you said the rear portion of the keel wasn't flush with the hull.

Good luck.

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 10:00:52

Hi Ben,

I'm sorry to hear of your ordeal. It's good that you have a handle on it now.

Has Freeman Eckley refused to compensate you for the $2000.00 it will cost to fix their mess up?

IMHO: They ought to compensate you and avoid attorney fees. I agree with OLDSALT about the photos.

Good luck and Go Bucks!

Paul

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 11:00:41

Thanks ya'll for the support. I do plan on taking copius photos to document and what not. Paul, I have not contacted Freeman Eckley yet. I have a call into an attorney to discuss what I should do.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 11:31:21

Wow... I think a wing keel install is supposed to use literally a bucket full of epoxy bedding compound...

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:59:25

I got a call back from Catalina. They are going to be emailing me the instructions for the conversion, so I can know what was supposed to happen. I also talked to the installer, who agreed to make it right, and to have it back to me within five days of my leaving it with him. I'm not sure I believe him, but before I chase him with a lawyer, I think I have to give the guy a chance to make it right.

Anyway, I asked Catalina how much bonding compound they ship with their wing keel kit. Kent said he would check with the guy who puts the kit together and would give me a call back. Kent also asked me if the torque specifications were followed, the answer to which is I don't know. I would hope the installer would do that right. When I asked the installer how much bonding compound he used, he said Catalina only sent him a half gallon of bonding compound. I told him that my local guy ground down the area and couldn't see where any bonding compound was used. The installer replied that it all squeezed out when the keel joined with the hull.

I'm thinking that if that is the case, the bonding compound should have sealed the trunk, which it hasn't. The installer (and Catalina) thinks the fix could be packing the area with more bonding compound, then fiberglassing the area. My local guy says that might work, but then why is there a gap now between the keel and keel trunk. He is thinking that the installer did not torque the keel nuts properly. He's wondering if the installer drew the keel up into the keel trunk by tightening down the nuts, which he said is the wrong way to do it. Rather, the keel should have rested on the ground, the boat lowered on top, firmly settling the keel trunk over the keel, then tightening the bolts down to the appropriate torque setting. I'm having my local guy test that this week by resting the boat on it's keel on the ground and checking the torque settings.

Oh boy. What a situation!

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 19:00:43

Ben, one of the big problems in the marine business, particularly the sail boat part, is that any given repair is only done once by many people. This requires that a lot of thought go into doing the job. As my Grandmother, from Lorain, Ohio, often said, some people think, some people think they think, but most people would rather be shot than think. Don't be too hard on the guy's that had never seen this before and probably mostly serviced outboards and never thought about the fact that sailboats are often on their sides. They will probably get it right on the second go round. Have your friend, paid for his time of course, act as surveyor / supervisor/ instruction interpreter during the refitt. I have done this sort of thing often for yards around here that had dificult or complicated jobs that they did not understand. The guy that works on your Chevy truck for the dealership sees 50 trucks each week and they are all basicly the same, he still pooches one up occasionally, these guys probably saw their first and last Cat 25 keel replacement with yours. I know that all they had to do was follow the directions the problem was that they didn't understand which parts were important. 1/2 gallon of epoxy is no where near enough. If they had done it before they would know that. The only thing that will work in the long run is to take it off, clean the keel and the hull cavity, and put it back with lots of epoxy filler. Dave

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 19:41:55

"The only thing that will work in the long run is to take it off, clean the keel and the hull cavity, and put it back with lots of epoxy filler."

Second that opinion.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 08:46:04

and people make fun of me when I read directions first before undertaking a project.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 09:05:41

Hell Frank I've done nothing but build boats and fix mechanical stuff for my whole life and I still read the directions for most everything that I do. Dave

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 20:44:59

The old joke used to be: "After product fails read can". Good luck with the repair, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2004 : 21:57:53

I'm not an attorney, but I listen to one on the radio.
I too think that this is something you can handle in small claims court with your evidence (photos, testimoney of people on site when it happened, testimoney of guy doing repairs, more photos and repair receipts from the a-hole who screwed you).
Once you have a judgement from small claims court, you can get a sheriff's deputy to help you collect for your judgement.

And it'd probably be worth a few hundred dollars (to pay your attorney) to make sure that a-hole crook gets his due.

Good luck!!

I wish mine was a wing keel; I'm just unwilling to spend the money.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2004 : 00:02:22

Ben, I am going to say something that is less than comforting. The other two wing keel stories I have read about made it sound like the owner of the boat was there 24-7 and helped the entire time. Dave and others are right about the installer doing something for the first time. In a perfect world your boat should have been done correctly, in my world I would have been there making sure it was done correctly. I am genuinely sorry for what has happened to you and I really hope it turns out ok. I also really hope you can be there this time.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 07:50:22

David, Frank, and all,
Thank you for your comments. I don't think I'm being too hard on the guy who installed it. I don't think less of him as a person, i just don't have a level of trust with him, especially after this. Much of this lack of trust comes from the installer not owning his own lift. He is going to try to fix this without removing the keel, just patch it up, while my guy down here has his own lift, says the keel needs to be totally removed and reinstalled. While in a perfect world I could be up there with him when he installed it, or when he fixes it (if I have him fix it), I unfortunately cannot stay away from work that long, nor afford a hotel for the possible week the installer estimated for the repairs to take.

Anyway, I received the instructions from Kent at Catalina Yachts for installation of the wing keel. I don't remember seeing Catalina's instructions published on this sight. If they're not there already, perhaps we should go ahead and post them. I can email them to Spike. Kent also said the person who puts the wing keel kit together includes a gallon of bonding material, not the three gallons I had thought.

My wife and I took pictures Saturday. The keel hasn't separated as much as I was lead to believe. The crack is more than a hairline, but not too much bigger. That makes me think that maybe the installer's (and Kent's) opinion that they can rebond the crack and then fiberglass over it will work. That would certainly be the easier fix, but will it be just as good?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 08:25:41

Ben - Who in vermillion did you go to....if you don't feel comfortable posting it on the web, then shoot me an email....I am from Cleveland and know of a few people who do that work in that area. If I ever need anyone, I'd like to know where not to go...

Also, who at Freeman Eckley did you deal with?

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 09:07:44

Ben,

If it was my boat the keel would come off and be reinstalled according to the directions. The initial installer would not be allowed to "patch" it and if he couldn't do it properly he could pay to have it done elsewhere.

Good Luck!

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 11:02:14

Duane, the person who installed the keel is Gary Disbrow. I used him because Freeman-Eckley said he is their fiberglass person. In actuality, he is a subcontractor to FE in fiberglass projects. He is not on FE's payroll. When I wrote my checks, they were to him, not FE, except when I had to pay for the delivery of the keel, and for a little bit of lift time. FE owns the lift Gary used, and his access to that lift, at least during the winter months, was extremely limited, causing the installation to be delayed many months. I know it might seem like I hate this guy, but I don't. Gary was very easy to work with, if a bit hard to get a hold of at times. I think his performance might be like what David said, this being his first and likely only wing keel retrofit. I certainly don't want to give him a bad reputation.

Clif, regarding the option of removing the keel and reinstalling it from scratch, I'm going to wait and see what my local guy says after he tests the torque setting, then I'll talk to my lawyer, than I'll make my decision.

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 17:59:59

Hi Ben,

IMHO: I would drop it and do the job over. As I understand it the adhesive helps the nuts and bolts hold the keel. My worry is that there isn't a way to tell how much adhesive is in there. Could there be air pockets?

I met a guy in Pensacola who's iron keel nuts and bolts were totally rusted out (to dust), yet his keel stayed in place. We all figured "it musta been the glue holdin it on

"

I have an old Hunter

video that shows a boat being lowered onto its "bolt on" keel. As the boat settled, a bunch of adhesive came squeezing out making a solid fit.

With no "glue" what would happen if that big hunk of lead decided to fall off.

Just a thought.

PW

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2004 : 19:35:08

Ben, I think that you have to have it off completely. The crack you are talking about occured because the keel and hull are moving relative to one another. External filler and glass will not stop this. The motion will remove them or break the bond and the leak will return. You have to get a near perfect fit between the trunk and the keel top because the shape of the two is wrong for this joint. A normal keel has a large flat surface with the keel bolts going up through it. This gives the bolts a lot of leverage to resist keel movement. Your hull to keel joint is basicly cylindrical and so it needs a lot of area in contact to resist side sway. I'm going to guess that your guy did not put enough epoxy in the joint to begin with and tried to sort of back fill it after the boat was down. That would be difficult to impossible to do and get a good bond. It would also be important to remove most (80 to 90 %) of the bottom paint that was in the trunk. I think that if I had the boat and a travel lift or good boat standsthat I could pull the keel, clean it, and leave everything to dry in a morning. If the original guy did a resonable job of cleaning the slot it will only need a going over with a grinder to rough up the resin thats there. The next morning I would mix the goop and have it back together and cleaned up by noon. Paint as soon as the resin is firm to the touch. Launch on day 3 or 4 depending on cure time. The only real pain would come if you had to grind a lot of stuff out of the slot and even then a good grinder will take off alot of resin in a short period of time. Dave

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 07:27:35

Ben, what a shame! You had looked forward to the wing, and then to have it installed improperly. My heart aches for you. And, I w0ould expect that the installer has an obligation to redo the install. Not just fix it, but redoing it from start to finsih. He didn't do the job you expected and he has to make it right, and that should include redoing the whole thing.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:03:49

Thanks Don for your sentiments, and Dave and All for your thoughts and input. Hopefully she'll be back in the water soon. At least it's just a boat. Gotta keep things in perspective.

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