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thinkin' of bigger & future boat

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ddlyle
Captain

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Initially Posted - 07/03/2004 : 09:26:41

I get so spoiled by this great forum. I wish other sailboat owners' groups would use this format.

Have any of you sailed a Mason 44'? 
The admiral wants to live onboard one day (I'm not convinced myself, but that's another matter.)
She wants a heavier boat and likes the idea of a full keel.
For ahwile I was thinking of Island Packet but I think their sailing ability is second to their space belowdecks.
I would prefer a better sailing vessel first and space below 2nd.

Any thoughts on something 40 - 50 foot range? Heavier rather than lighter but not too heavy and something sea-worthy.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:25:36

http://www.yachtworld.com Select advanced search and put in your parameters .....length, building material, $$.

Then peruse the listings, for hours, days, years.........

Also, get a hold of Ferenc Mate's "the worlds best built sailboats"

Oscar
Catalina 42 # 76, Lady Kay
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:58:09

There are lots of boats in that size range that sail well and are seaworthy. Heavy, full keel boats are excruciatingly slow and hard to maneuver. They don't tack well, because the expectation is that, at sea, you'll only tack them once or twice a day. When other boats are sailing, you're motoring. When other boats are having cool drinks, eating fresh foods and enjoying all the comforts of port, you're anticipating 2-3 more hard days at sea fighting a storm or trying to beat to windward in a boat that doesn't sail to windward very well. Because full keel boats tend to take the joy out of sailing, you tend to stay at the dock when others are sailing.

There are many boats that sail fast and well and that are safe and comfortable passagemakers. I'm just starting to look for a boat that has those attributes, that I can singlehand, and that I can race if I wish. I'm looking at the Tartan 37 or 3700, the C&C between 38-40 feet, and the Beneteau First 38 (which is generally regarded as the best sailing, best built Beneteau to date, and an all-around excellent boat). Tartan and C&C make bigger boats that are just as good, and that are fast, safe, comfortable and fun.

Those aren't the only good boats available. They're just the first ones on my own short list.

Before you make a firm decision to go with a full keel type boat, talk with a dealer in Annapolis or one of the big sailing centers, and tell them what both you and your wife really want in a boat. Don't tell them you want a heavy, full keel boat. Tell them how and where you want to use the boat, and what you want in terms of performance. Let them suggest boats that will make you happy. They don't charge a thing for that kind of consultation, and you'll get a lot of good information.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
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Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:03:50

Thanks Steve,
While I like to sail fast, the admiral doesn't care.
So a Beneteau First series is probably out.
I DO like Beneteau ... they're reasonably priced and made here is SC where I live.
You suggestion to talk to a dealer or broker is wise.

Oh yeah ... I do spend HOURS (and hours) on yachtworld lookin' and dreamin'.

Edited by - ddlyle on 07/03/2004 11:05:16

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:49:39

Having the same dreams.

Number one 'feature' on the list is a pliothouse or deck salon with an inside steering station for comfort and safety in bad weather.

I think one of the reasons for big heavy hull forms was that a traditional cockpit exposed the helmsman to the full brunt of the weather... which they couldn't take very long. Hence you needed a boat that would ride out bad weather with a passive crew hiding out below. I think a performance hull can do ok in bad weather... as long as it can be steered.

Another plus of the deck salon or pilothouse is that it gives you a lot more living space without needing a lot of volume below the waterline.

Edited by - on

takokichi
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321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 12:01:59

I have been aboard a Mason 44 and have seen her sail - though I have not sailed her myself. She is at the top of my short list for my circumnavigation attempt in ~5 years. The finish quality and detail execution is stunning. The systems access - a real consideration in the liveability of a boat in that range is second to none. Huge pulman berth to port at the base of the companionway. Galley bigger than the one in my last apartment. Fantastic salon and head. Awesome boat. They thought it all the way through - for example the butterfly hatch comes out in its entirety and the hole that's left is directly over a similarly sized hatch in the cabin sole - and there's then engine and genset.

As far as sailing ability - a Mason 44 rates 141 under PHRF up here. That's fast for a cruiser. Make no mistake - the fin keel Firsts etc will eat it but its not slow. I have to disagree with Steve about full keeled boats staying on their moorings. There are literally hundreds of full keeled boats from Pearson, Alberg, Hinkley, Cabo Rico, Island Packet, Cape Dory, and other sailing every weekend here. On flat water - the fin keels are better. In the ocean, the motion and tracking ability of the full keel make them not just acceptable but preferred for everything other than racing. They're not slow - the boat in second place in the Gulf of Maine Ocean Racing Assocation series right now is full keeled. They tack a bit more slowly than the fin keelers but they move once they're moving. Also, for what its worth the Mason isn't a true full keel - cut away foot and narrower when view bow on.

One of the biggest things you're going to want to look at in a liveaboard is stowage. Almost all the racey boat builders push the accomodations out to the hull leaving very limited storage. Enough for a weekend or even a month - sure. Enough to live on? I don't think so, myself. It doesn't really have to do with hull design - more market forces, I think - but many full or partial full (always makes me smile) keel boat builders include much more stowage

I'm with Steve for short term stuff and bashing around the buoys. For living on or real cruising, however, I'm all about something like the Mason.

YMMV

Justin

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 17:13:38

With all the due respect I can express, I'll point out that Steve is a lake sailor--a Great Lake to be sure, and I know what the Great Lakes can be like (lived in Michigan), but the ocean is different. The key benefit of a full keel is realized by ocean sailors, especially in large following seas. A performance fin keel will cause boats to veer off course in either direction as the boat begins to gain speed on the front side of the wave, and the helmsman (or autopilot) is constantly fighting it. In bad conditions, it can lead to a broach. The full keel helps greatly in holding course in following seas.

Another point on outrunning weather... Whether you can make seven knots or eight, when you're 50 miles from the inlet (or 2000 miles from anything), the weather will catch you. So the question then is, "Then what?"

I don't know the Mason (wish I did), but I can attest that Island Packets and Cape Dorys represent what I would want for any kind of passagemaking.

Edited by - on

seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 21:46:48

I love my Catalina 25. Without her, I wouldn't be on the water. However, there'll come a time when we'll buy a boat with more living room (32-40') to flee to warmer climes on during the winter months. Then, I'll be looking at Catalina along with many other brands. I've not sailed a Mason. I have been told that Caliber is a boat worth looking into. I've also been told that full keels, while great for blue water, are hard to maneuver and that a wing keel offers the best compromise between sailing ability and shallow water access.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2004 : 22:40:13

this Bavaria 50 "Moby" belongs to one of our club members. He says it is a wonderful boat. Maybe you should charter it and see what you think.
http://www.sailmoby.com/
http://www.bareboatsbvi.com/sailboat_bavaria50.html

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 07:57:35

Actually, I'm not primarily a Great Lakes sailor. I'm a small reservoir lake sailor who has sailed the Great Lakes, Virgin Islands and coastal waters in big boats with full and fin keels. Even though I've been reading about boat design and blue water cruising for nearly 30 years, and thought I knew a lot about blue water boats, I thought it would be worthwhile to consult with people who have had extensive blue water experience before I made such a major investment. The consensus of opinions that I have heard is that the full keel boat is ancient technology, and that boats with more modern design and construction are safer, stronger, and perform much better. One might ask why boats with old designs are still being built that way and the simple answer is, because people still buy them. Don't take my word for it. Talk with people who have a wide range of first-hand experience with lots of different boats.

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 08:40:31

I find it interesting that nobody is mentioning the Catalina line for their future cruising boats. I too am dreaming about a larger boat for retirement and sailing the carribbean. Are Catalinas not built or designed well enough for this? I do see the Catalina advertisements showing their "Cruiser's hall of Fame", but I'm wondering if these are the exceptions.
I do know that most everything in life is a compromise, but in my case it probably will come down to what I can afford, and how much work it will take to restore my future used boat. I can't imagine blowing my entire retirement savings on a new Island Packet, or Cabo Rico.
Oh what the heck, I'll just buy a Hinkley

Edited by - on

Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 08:55:13

I just checked out the Mason 44 on boats.com (one of the greatest time wasters ever invented). YEEHA, what a nice boat. Mucho dinero, Senor. My hat is off to anyone who can afford one. (I'm NOT a socialist) Where's my checkbook?

Of course boats.com is how I found my 89 wing

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 09:13:26

And another thing,
A friend of mine in my sailing club just bought a Union 36 for retirement. What a nice boat, built to travel the world, but he doesn't take it out unless it's blowing 15 knots, which is a big blow for Knoxville.
Go to boats.com and check these beauties out. Reminds me of a Cabo Rico.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 11:01:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...A performance fin keel will cause boats to veer off course in either direction as the boat begins to gain speed on the front side of the wave, and the helmsman (or autopilot) is constantly fighting it. In bad conditions, it can lead to a broach. The full keel helps greatly in holding course in following seas....I don't know the Mason (wish I did), but I can attest that Island Packets and Cape Dorys represent what I would want for any kind of passagemaking.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The idea that a passagemaker must be heavy and full keeled was pretty much dispelled when Bob Perry designed the Valiant 40 in the 70's. With it's performance fin keel design, this boat design proved to be exceptionally fast without sacrificing safety and bluewater performance in all conditions.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 11:16:15

Frank commented "... mentioning Catalina line for their future cruising boats."

I think there's a fair number of Catalina models that qualify... and plenty of them out there 'doing it' as we type.

That said, I think that Catalina has focused on the most popular segment of the market... people looking for a 'coastal cruiser/entertainment boat' with an emphasis on the design features that cater to that group. Hence, "Catalina - World Cruiser" is not an association that jumps up like Crealock, Hans Christian, Westsail, Tayana, Mason (& etc).

Meanwhile, the "Full Keel vs. Modern Underbody" debate rages on...

IMHO there's no definitive answer. People who want to opt for maximum safety will still gravitate to the full keels. Sailors who want the very best performance will head the other direction... and I think most folks will take the middle route and opt for one of the 'compromise' designs... semi-full keel with cutaway forefoot.

Lots of choices for everybody.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2004 : 21:37:10

To Clam's point, the Valiant is another example of the compromise between speed and safety--a horizontally-elongated fin and a skeg-hung rudder. Their reputation is unquestioned... But while it was a "performance keel" in the 70s, it isn't now. It's sort of like a cutaway forefoot and cutaway "aftfoot". I think of it as another example of the seakeeping advantages of a "long" keel over a deep (performance fin) keel. If I were in that market, I'd certainly like to have a shot at one.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/04/2004 21:41:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 08:59:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I find it interesting that nobody is mentioning the Catalina line for their future cruising boats. I too am dreaming about a larger boat for retirement and sailing the carribbean. Are Catalinas not built or designed well enough for this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Frank, the bigger Catalinas (e.g., 36, 38, 42) are definitely on my list of retirement boats that are capable of long passages, but not my short list. For $10-25,000 more, I can buy a boat that I'll like better, and since my next boat will probably be my last boat, and my home for awhile, I can justify and amortize the extra cost. I think a lot depends on your plans and personal circumstances.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 09:18:39

You make a good point Steve,
by the way, what is on your short list, and what year range? Or are you going to buy new?

I sure like the Catalina 36 Mark II from about 1992 on, but I'm not sure I would like to be out on her when a storm comes. The interior layout is really nice, and I do like having 6 stays up the mast vs 2 for the Hunter. I looked at Boats.com at the Beneteau 38 and you can buy one off charter for about 50 grand. I wonder how trashed out it would be

Edited by - on

frogger
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Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 11:25:01

Wish list - Hinkley, 44, center cockpit, perhaps ketch rig.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 18:19:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">what is on your short list, and what year range? Or are you going to buy new?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I like the Tartan 37 or 3700, the C&C between 38-40 feet, and the Beneteau First 38. I'll look for the most recent vintage, in the best condition and with the best equipment that I can afford. I would only buy a new boat if I planned to keep it for a long time.

I read about an older vintage C36 that (as I recall) sailed from the west coast to Hawaii. It had quite a few problems, but most of the problems were attributable to hardware manufactured by companies other than Catalina. For example, the Edson wheel broke. That's not a Catalina flaw. It's an Edson flaw. It could have happened on any brand of boat with an Edson wheel. Also, an old genoa car broke the first day out in fair weather. The genoa cars are also not made by Catalina, and the one in question was old and deteriorated. It should have been replaced before starting a long passage. The only Catalina flaw was a hull-deck joint that leaked. If it had been checked in advance, it could have been sealed. Lots of people are making long passages in C36s without problems. The only ones you hear about are the ones with problems. I've heard some silly criticisms that C36s don't have enough grab bars on the coach roof in the saloon. If you want more grab bars, it's no big deal to attach a couple of them to the coach roof.

I've decided I won't buy a former charter boat. They live a really rough life, and commonly have a gazillion hours on the engines, transmissions, sails and hardware. You might get a good buy, but the risk is too great that you'll get a tired boat with a lot of problems.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 20:06:34

Steve makes a good point about criticisms... When a builder makes several thousand of a particular boat, you'll hear about more problems than you will with a boat where only a few hundred were built. In fact, the larger volume will result in owners' groups, like this one, that make more noise--like this forum.

On the flip-side, Catalina is fully responsible, IMHO, for the hardware they put on their boats. If Edson or Schaefer are not up to the task, then Catalina shouldn't use them. But on the other flip-side, nobody should assume that Catalina is designing or fitting out their boats for circumnavigations, or even passages to Hawaii. For those purposes, I'd second-guess everything about my C-36 or C-42. If you strike out for Hawaii, you should be ready for major weather events that you cannot avoid or outrun. And you should understand that when something breaks, you won't be able to run over to WM that afternoon!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/05/2004 20:10:35

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 12:50:18

To continue the "Full Keel vs. Modern Underbody" discussion a little more, I think there are reasons for the shift in thinking in favor of the modern underbody for bluewater cruisers.

In a mild storm, any kind of boat should be able to lie ahull or heave to. When the conditions become so rough that the boat can no longer lie ahull or heave to comfortably, most experts agree that it is best to continue actively sailing as long as the boat and crew are able to do so, because you can steer the boat around breaking waves. When the conditions become so severe, or the crew is so exhausted, that they can no longer actively sail the boat, then the modern approach is to deploy a drogue to slow the boat's speed and to keep it oriented to the waves.

Those tactics are not just applicable to the fin keel boat. They are just as useful for a full keel boat. The only real difference is that, because of its superior speed, a fin keel boat will probably start racing down the face of the waves and have to resort to the drogue a little sooner than the full keel boat. But, the use of the drogue should make both boats equally safe.

In short, by using modern storm sailing tactics and equipment, the fin keel boat behaves just as well and is just as safe as the full keel boat in the most severe weather, while greatly outperforming the full keel boat in moderate weather.

Edited by - on

Scotd
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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 14:16:54

What about one of the big Trimarans or Catamarans?

Edited by - Scotd on 07/06/2004 14:21:37

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 15:09:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What about one of the big Trimarans or Catamarans?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I think the same principles apply. You don't want them racing down the face of a wave so fast that they bury themselves in the trough and pitchpole. And you don't want them to take big, steep waves on the beam, because of the danger of capsize. So, a drogue would control their speed and keep them oriented stern-to-the-waves. Logic would suggest that you would need to deploy a drogue even sooner on a multi-hull boat than on a fin keeled monohull.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 19:28:13

I'm really enjoying this discussion. Steve's, Don's, Dave's and Clam's (what is your name by the way) comments are very enlightening to someone like me with limited experience, but with big ambitions and dreams.
Like I told someone at work today (a babe, but I have a rule against dating a fellow employee) "Realities begin with Dreams"
and you can quote me on that.
I figure that in about 8 or 10 years I'll be able to buy a 36 footer (gotta pay off the student loans and fund that 401k) so I'm studying all the new models and trends now, so when these boats are 8 to 10 years old, I'll be able to afford them, and still have money for Beaches, Bars, Babes, Ballads (isn't that a Jimmy Buffett boxed set?)
Somehow, I really like the Catalina 36 Mark II. I think a big part of their appeal to me is their great association, website, and discussion list, which I lurk on. Check out their website, we have a link to them. You can get lots of good ideas which are applicable to our boats. They have great checklists, and even drink menus. I like those folks. They have even written to me answering questions about their boats, much like we do for folks asking about ours. I can't imagine that any other manufacturer has as loyal, and helpful a following as Frank Butler has.
Sorry for the ramble.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 21:33:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 I'm really enjoying this discussion. Steve's, Don's, Dave's and Clam's (what is your name by the way)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Click on his name in his post... He's Bruce.

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