Association Forum - New outboard arrived today-it's the wrong one!

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

New outboard arrived today-it's the wrong one!

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2004 : 00:14:04

My long anticipated Yamaha T8 arrived today, and to my shock and dismay, almost as soon as we had it out of the crate, I discovered that it's missing a key feature - the recoil starter! The T8 I looked at in the store had both an electric and a recoil starter; that standard dual starter is the main reason I wanted the T8 instead of the T9.9, which is electric start only. I would have bought that one in the showroom except that it was only a 20" shaft, and you need the XLS 25" shaft for the Catalina 25. So I placed an order for an XLS, and had to pay the full amount up-front since it was a special order.
I also discovered that this motor has power tilt, something I didn't want since it is too much of a battery drain. Folsom Lake Marina has no shore power, so if your boat battery is dead, there's nothing you can do but swap it for a fresh one or take it home to charge it (I have a solar panel on order, but the vendor is backordered and says he will probably not be re-supplied until after Labor Day). The motor has only a 5 amp alternator - virtually worthless, especially since it's only 5 amps at 5500 rpm, and I rarely run an outboard faster than 2200, which drives the boat at hull speed. And as far as I could tell, there is no way to uncouple the power tilt mechanism and tilt the motor manually. So, if the battery is dead, you not only can't start the engine, you can't tilt it either!
This motor is so different than the one I looked at in the showroom that I had to look twice at the motor cover to see if it really is an 8 hp, and not a 9.9!
Does anyone know why the T8 showroom demo I looked at would have dual starter, and the one I ordered is electric start only? I am going to call the dealer tomorrow, but I fear that I am stuck with it because it was was a special order. Besides, to return it for exchange would cost me about $450 for fuel and milage depreciation (1300 miles RT) on my truck

I will also check into having this motor retrofitted with a recoil starter, although of course that will involve the cost of not only the starter parts, but a new motor cover, since the one that came with the motor has no hole in the front for the rope and pull handle to stick through. I am so upset and disappointed tonight that whatever joy and anticipation I was holding in store for next weekend's sailing is a distant memory indeed

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25WK/TR Mk. IV #5857 "Quiet Time"
Folsom Lake, CA

"You might get there faster in a powerboat, but in a sailboat, you're already there"

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 07:30:00

Larry, check to see that your new motor is a newer model and not the older 8hp model. I thought the newer model Yamaha had pull start and that it had made the tilt mechnanism optional.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

Members Avatar

880 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 09:25:58

I think I would put a stop payment or reverse the credit card charge real quick.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 10:33:10

"Larry, check to see that your new motor is a newer model"

Yeah, Yamaha just changed models on the 8hp... according to their site, electric tilt on the new model is an option so you should be able to get one without it... but they don't mention a manual starting system on their specs page.

Wonder if they have the emergency rope starter built under the cowl like they did on the older model.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 11:41:38

My heavy Honda is lookin better all the time

So Clam, what does your dealer have to say about this, and is he going to reimburse you for your expenses? Is your dealer in your same state, to make a small claims court battle easier?

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 13:55:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">to return it...1300 miles RT<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where is the dealer? Aren't you just east of the Bay area?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 16:59:23

I thought somebody on the forum said they had a T-8 with a recoil starter, but I've never seen one with it. That was my primary reason for going with Honda, along with the 12 amp alternator (6 amps at idle, I think.) Maybe you got a 2003 or older unit--I have not seen a 2004. I'd expect the year to be coded into the serial number.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 17:17:48

It was YOU, Larry--on 2/8 you posted:

2. New for 2004, the Yamaha T8 has a recoil starter in addition to the electric starter. HOWEVER, this is NOT the case for the Yamaha 9.9; it still comes with electric start only. The Honda 8 has both electric and recoil starters.

Looks to me like you got an old one--that's grounds for making somebody eat the cost of swapping.

Edited by - on

Mike L
Deckhand

Members Avatar

15 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 19:58:53

I wouldn't give up so quickly. The first things I would do are 1. Ascertain exactly what model were you looking at in the showroom when you told the salesperson you wanted to buy one like it, since it sounds like the sale was clearly premised on that particular motor and model; 2. Scrutinize the documents that you signed in making the purchase- do they describe something other than the model you looked at? If not, you should be insisting that the dealer take care of the problem and the freight. If so, you may still have a right to the proper model, but things get more complicated and more information would be needed to help you know what your options are.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2004 : 00:31:23

The motor that was delivered is a 2005 - one of the first 2005 production I guess. The dealer is in Portland, OR. I went with this dealer because I had been told by one of the Portland Catalina Fleet people (Gary Bruner) that they had one in stock. This turned out to be incorrect, in that the motor they had in stock was a 20". not the 25" XLS, but when I talked to them about it, they offered an attractive price, so I told them to ge ahead and order it. I was planning to go up to Portland for the Nationals anyway, and would have picked it up at the store, but then I had to cancel the trip, which meant that the shop had to ship it to me Motor Truck Freight ($160). This whole deal was based on the assumption that I would pick up the motor in person, and it has turned into a screw-up because I had to cancel the trip and thus couldn't verify personally that the motor was actually what I thought it would be before making payment (cashiers check, not credit card, so I can't stop payment on the credit card, either, as Ben suggests). Live and learn, I guess.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2004 : 14:33:51

Larry: What's under the cowl? It used to be that to use the emergency starter cord, you had to remove the cowl and unbolt the flywheel cover (3-4 bolts). Did they by chance improve that so that, on the off-chance you run the battery down, you have some reasonable alternative? It amazes me that they put the recoil on for one model year (presumably because Honda has one) and then removed it.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2004 : 23:49:25

Dave -
Yes, this motor has an "emergency" starter cord, like the Yamaha 9.9, involving the removal of at least three 10mm fasteners to get at the fitting on top of the flywheel that you wrap the emergency start cond around. This scenario always seems to occur when you are in the middle of a real emergency, like being blown onto a lee shore or into a cluster of million-dollar yachts in a crowded anchorage, and you need the motor RIGHT NOW, not in 5 or 10 minutes.
Anyway, the motor I looked at in the showroom was definately a T8, with both electric and recoil start, not the "emergency" pull start that you have to take the motor cover off, then unbolt the safety shield over the flywheel.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 07:45:39

It sounds like you need to pay a restocking fee and move on to the Nissan.
Can they get the XLS extension for the one they have in the show room?

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 08:04:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It sounds like you need to pay a restocking fee and move on to the Nissan.
Can they get the XLS extension for the one they have in the show room?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The unit that I looked at on the showroom floor has been sold, so it's no longer there for me to point at as an example. I am going to phone Yamaha customer service this morning and try to get verification of the specific ordering code for the motor I want. I have a hunch that the reason that the motor came without the recoil starter I wanted is that it is a 2005 model, and the recoil starter may have been something that was on the 2003/2004 motors and has now been dropped (I hope I'm wrong!). If this is the case, and I can no longer get a motor from Yamaha with the dual starter, then my falback position is a Honda, although they don't offer the extra-low 3:1 gear ratio that makes the Yamaha such a good sailboat kicker.

Edited by - on

kenobie51
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 12:39:06

Larry,
Here is an option. Are you happy with the motor other than the lack of manual recoil? I assume you have a single standard size battery, and are concerned about it being dead when needed urgently. Consider this. Get a light duty dual battery switch (small about 30 amps, not the big 100+ type), and a very small 12volt gell battery like ATV's use. It really takes very little power to start the outboard. The gell battery will hold its charge all season and be there if you need it.

Regards,
Larry Knobel
C25 1657 Sailing Cayuga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 17:51:17

Larry,
I'm not sure what gear ratios my Honda Power Thrust has but it has no problem with my 25 in either forward or reverse. I do have the 8 hp version which has a cam for lower end torque, vs the 10 hp model. It has a big 4 blade prop. Yes, made for sailboats. It somehow vents the exhaust gas through a relief port when in reverse so the exhaust doesn't come out of the prop and cause cavitation.
Lots of thought went into this motor, guesse that's why it's expensive and heavy.
My only problem with it is when I didn't shut the tank vent and water got into the gas and then filled up the float. My fault, not Hondas.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 19:57:38

) and that Yamaha was going to charge $100 to replace the waranty papers and re-certify the engine as "new" instead of "used". Sounds like a fancy way to tell me they are going to charge a $100 restocking fee. At least I was able to verify, with the store's service department manager, thet the engine I want, with dual starter, IS available -it's the T8-EXHD, which is the Non-Power-Tilt, 25" model. It turns out that the difference is that the Power Tilt model that they shipped me does NOT include the recoil start. He is checking with the distributor to see if they have one, and I should find out something tomorrow.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 00:50:56

IMHO, if the dealer ordered the wrong model, he is the one responsible for getting you the correct engine and paying any additional charges resulting from his ordering error. The question is did he order the wrong model or did the distributor send the wrong engine. In either case you still should not be held responsible for any costs associated with their error.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:25:52

Larry,

I am VERY sorry you are having difficulty with Brown's Landing in Scappoose, OR. However, I do not recall ever telling you that they had the engine you wanted in stock. You asked me for the name of a dealer in the Portland area that handled Yamahas, and I referred you to the one from whom I bought by 9.9 electric start high thrust 4 stroke in 2000. Their prices are generally the lowest in the area, and they have done maintenance work for me. They have always treated me in a fairly (for a dealer!).

Again, I am sorry for the trouble, but I can take NO responsibility for the mix up on engines......(which was implied by mentioning my name in your previous post). You asked me for advice and tried to help....

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 12:13:51

When a dealer special-orders merchandise for a buyer, the order form is the written record of the transaction. When you're ordering something like an outboard motor, don't let them just put a model number on the order form, because you usually don't know what all the manufacturer's code numbers and letters mean. Also, as you've learned, this year's model might have different features than last year's model. Make the dealer write the current model year on the order form, so you don't get last year's model, and make him list any specific features that are crucial to you. For example, he should indicate, in writing, that the motor will have 8 horsepower, a 25" shaft, 6 amp alternator, both elec. start and rope start, etc. If you do that, then, when he delivers a motor that doesn't have those features, you should be able to stand your ground and make him correct the problem at his expense.

Don't trust the rascals to get it right. Make them put all the particulars in writing.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 18:11:14

Great advice, Steve!

I've sometimes found that when ordering something and the seller is somewhat reluctant to add all the details to the order form, you can write the details in yourself, so that it is clear that those details are a condition to you signing the order form and/or making the down payment (or full payment in Larry's case).

Edited by - RichardG on 07/16/2004 18:25:47

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 19:00:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've sometimes found that when ordering something and the seller is somewhat reluctant to add all the details to the order form, you can write the details in yourself, so that it is clear that those details are a condition to you signing the order form and/or making the down payment (or full payment in Larry's case).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If they don't want to put the details on the order form, that should set off all kinds of alarms, and you should probably walk out the door.

Recently I had a rebuilt transmission installed in one of my vehicles. The boilerplate language in the warranty said all parts that have been replaced are warranted. I made them write on the order form that every part in the transmission would be replaced. Otherwise, I would have no way of knowing or proving which parts were replaced. They would only stand behind any parts they chose to stand behind.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 22:20:00

Hey Larry,
If you want, about 7 or 8 of us could go see your dealer,,
Or better yet, Uncle Vito in Chicago could round up some a da boys an could go an have a chit chat wit whoevers responsible an have a little face time
Or worse yet, strap him to a Macgregor and send him out into the gulf stream in small craft warnings

You know you can always count on us

We got yer back

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2004 : 00:29:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary B.
 
Again, I am sorry for the trouble, but I can take NO responsibility for the mix up on engines......(which was implied by mentioning my name in your previous post). You asked me for advice and tried to help....

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My apologies to Gary! It is not my intention to blame him in ANY way for this mix-up. I was only asking him if there was a Yamaha dealer in Portland, since I was originally supposed to be heading there for the Nationals, then on to the San Juans, and I had heard that prices are a little lower in Otegon. Neither Gary or anyone else in his Fleet had anything to do with the problem that has developed. Again, my apologies!

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.