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OK then...C27??

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/16/2004 : 16:09:31

I love my C25, but have always lamented the lack of a proper inboard. Well, the local marina has a C27 for sale, with an inboard. I have never sailed on a C27, but they don't look of feel much different than a 25, a little bigger here, there, ect. One thing that bothers me, the LWL is only 21' 9". Seems like they could have squeezed a little more out of it. It is a 1982 model, standard rig, traditional interior, fin keel.

Any comments would be helpful. I'm not really all that serious about it, having just completed a refiting of my C25, without eving having sailed yet this season.

Thanks,

Lance
85 FK/SR

Edited by - on

Chip Hunt
Navigator

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120 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 17:28:49

Although the prospect of having a boat with an inboard diesel sounds appealing, I don't think that I would move up from a c25 to a c27. There is really very little extra room in the 27 when you compare the two boats. The 27 does have a heavier rig, and would appear to be a safer boat for coastal cruising. I just don't think I would give up my 25 for it. The c27 support network is also not nearly as good as the network we have for the c25's. If and when I move up, I plan on getting something 30 feet or bigger (Beneteau 311... http://www.beneteauusa.com/beneteau_series/311_photos.php ...drool). THAT would be moving up. I think buying a c27 would be moving sideways.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 19:52:34

I sailed a Catalina 27 in the Molokai channel off Oahu where the seas get really rough and I'll tell you that the Catalina 27 is a much more robust boat than our Catalina 25s. If I was moving up however, I'd skip the 27 and go for a 30.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 20:31:49

I agree that the C27 is not much of a jump from a C25. Although the C30 is a good size, I opted for the C320...great boat and great size.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2004 : 00:47:03

I agree with the above posts, the C27 isn't much of a boost in size, and you lose the trailerability you have with the C-25. In fact, as far as headroom is concerned, the C-27 has LESS than the C-25, since it lacks the 6'-6" headroom of the C-25's Pop-top. The Catalina 30 is a really nice boat, there are lots of them around at reasonable prices, and they have a really excellent design on the engine, transmission, and propshaft layout when you need to do maintenance. There is no other inboard-powered sailboat I have ever seen on which it's easier to get at the engine and and shaft seal to do maintenance. The engine lives under one of the galley cabinets - you just unclip the latches and lift the cabinet off, and there's the engine, fully exposed on all sides for easy access. The shaft seal is in the middle of the galley floor, under an access plate, like the engine it's right out in the open and soooo easy to work on compared to doing inboard engine work on a Catalina 25 with an inboard diesel.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 21:25:59

Yeah, I've heard that the C27 is hard to access the engine.
Hence the maintenance night not have been done properly on the model.
I don't know that I would spend the survey money on it.
Shop hard and you could probably find a C30 for a fair price and get a lot more boat for your money.
Never get in a hurry buying a boat,
unless the bargain is very obvious. (I.M.H.O.)

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 23:20:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ddlyle
 Shop hard and you could probably find a C30 for a fair price and get a lot more boat for your money.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Second the above opinion. You can find 1980 Catalina 30's for around $15000~$20000, whereas a similar vintage C-27 might be $12000 or even less for an old one in poor shape, but the C-30 offers MUCH more in terms of creature comfort, cruising capability, load carrying capacity, sailing performance. The Catalina 30 will cost a little more for slip fees, insurance, maintenance, replacement of sails and rigging, etc. But frankly, almost everyone I have known who started with a Catalina 22 or 25, then tried a Catalina 27 as their first "big boat", became disappointed with it pretty quickly and moved up again to a 30'~36' boat within a couple of years, so they might as well have skipped the 27. The Catalina 27 is more of a "starter" boat than one you would "move up to", IMHO. It doesn't offer much more than the Catalina 25 in size or performance, and isn't really trailerable, requiring a "Wide Load" permit and a really massive trailer and 1-ton truck to pull it with. If I ever decide to make the move to a "big" boat, it will likely be a Catalina 30, since they are so easy to do engine work on, and are relatively cheap at 1/3 the price of a Catalina 36 of the same vintage. But for the time being, I stll want to be able to trailer my boat to different places like the San Juans and Lake Tahoe, and the Catalina 25 is probably the best compromise in a trailerable boat for size, purchase price, and creature comforts for cruising. I liked the 1986 Catalina 22 I had for two years, but it was just too small for me; I was always banging my head and elbows trying to move around inside it. Good luch in your search!

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 14:14:04

Your friends are all giving you good advise . The 27s V burth is 6" shorter than the 25s. If your going to move up wait untill you can make a jump to something your going to be satified with for a long time. There are some realy good 28' to 30' boats out there. Even ones that can take you out into the green stuff safely. The bigest draw back my wife and I had withh the C25 was in rough weather and a rather flat bottom they tended to pound on the short chop or waves. The same is true of the C27 and C30. During our trips we had made friends with several people with larger Catalinas. When it was time to make a crossing through the streights they were always watching the weather and waves. Can we go now / wait for a while always agaonizing about two much wind and chop. It made there sail work and not enjoyable . Our Catalina 25 was one of the best boats we had ever owned and I still miss its simplicity but if your going to jump up do it right. Your not going to trailer a 27. Have a look on www.yachtworld.com at 28 to 30' and leave out the manufacturer. You will find Cape Dory, Choey Lee, Westsail, Newport, Columbia, and my favorite Alberg and more. For just a bit over 20K you can find a boat that will last a life time.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 14:49:15

I sail my C25 nearly every day and I've sailed quite a bit on a 1979 FK C30 with inboard diesel now as well. Sailing the C30 is like driving a bus, while my C25 feels more like a sports car. The ride in rough, choppy ocean conditions is not that much better in the C30 - its still bouncy and quite rolly. The diesel C30 tacks a lot slower, makes a lot more noise under power, smells, and vibrates more. The C30 costs a lot more boat to own and operate and not nearly as easy to single hand. But is has much, much more room inside and in the cockpit. My friend has spent several thousand dollars since purchase on engine, shaft, packing gland, transmission, fuel line and other problems.

I like the C30 and I wish I had the necessary $ to own one, but I am quite happy with my C25. C25 is better for a single hander which is what I mostly do. The C30 without doubt is better for a family of 4 doing overnighters.

I would not trade my C25 for a C27. Maybe a C28.

If I was getting a C28 or C30 I would seriously consider one with an Atmoic 4 gas engine. The boats have less resale value so you could get into it cheaper, cheaper to own, cheaper to operate, more HP, less vibration, less noise under power, less smell.

Having had 3 boats now I like the simplicity of an 8 HP classic Honda 8 hp outboard hanging off the back. Loosen 2 bolts and repower the boat in an afternoon for $2000. Just try that with an inboard diesel!

The only downsides to an OB powered sailboat is prop cavitation in big choppy waves, and slightly less reliability due to the fact that your motor is exposed to the elements and could take a dunking under certain conditions. Also its a little awkward to hang off the stern to shift gears or adjust the throttle until you get the hang of it.

The upside is that obs are highly reliable these days, easy to maintain, cheap to repair, simple to upgrade, and a steerable ob makes the boat a breeze to handle while docking or backing.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 15:09:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...The only downsides to an OB powered sailboat is prop cavitation in big choppy waves, and slightly less reliability due to the fact that your motor is exposed to the elements and could take a dunking under certain conditions. Also its a little awkward to hang off the stern to shift gears or adjust the throttle until you get the hang of it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is why I really like the integrated throttle/shifter on my Merc. Twist the throttle one way and go forward...twist in the opposite direction and your in reverse. No looking for a shifter, no taking your eyes off of where you are heading, no thinking, no nothing. To me, there is no better option on an outboard.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 15:24:06

That is why I really like the integrated throttle/shifter on my Merc. Twist the throttle one way and go forward...twist in the opposite direction and your in reverse. No looking for a shifter, no taking your eyes off of where you are heading, no thinking, no nothing. To me, there is no better option on an outboard. - Don

Hi Don,

How old is your Mercury? I thought it was pretty old, like mine, and mine doesn't have the integrated throttle/shifter. Did you add that feature? If not, do you know if it can be added to an older Merc?

Thanks!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 15:46:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 That is why I really like the integrated throttle/shifter on my Merc. Twist the throttle one way and go forward...twist in the opposite direction and your in reverse. No looking for a shifter, no taking your eyes off of where you are heading, no thinking, no nothing. To me, there is no better option on an outboard. - Don

Hi Don,

How old is your Mercury? I thought it was pretty old, like mine, and mine doesn't have the integrated throttle/shifter. Did you add that feature? If not, do you know if it can be added to an older Merc?

Thanks!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Buzz,

I'm not exactly sure what model year my Merc is, but the original bill of sale is dated 1995 so I'm guessing that it's around that year and, yes, it came with the integrated throttle/shifter.

Funny thing was, when I first got this outboard, I put it up on the stand in a trash can full of water, then started it up. After I got it started, I went to put it in gear to give it a little higher rev, but the problem was, I couldn't find the shifter. I shut the motor down and started looking for the shifter. After a short time of head scratching, I spotted the REV/Neutral/FWD label on the throttle and went, hmmmm! I fired the motor back up, gave the throttle a twist, and bingo, it shifted into gear. I immediately said cooool!

With the integrated throttle/shifter, and the kill button on the very end of the tiller handle, outboard operation can't get any easier. As for your motor Buzz, I don't know if this option can be retro-fitted to your outboard.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 15:53:58

With the integrated throttle/shifter, and the kill button on the very end of the tiller handle, outboard operation can't get any easier. As for your motor Buzz, I don't know if this option can be retro-fitted to your outboard. - Don

That sounds like a great setup ... I wish my o/b had those features. I don't want to put much money into my tired old o/b ... I was thinking I might look for salvaged parts or something, but I doubt a retrofit is possible.

Thanks for the scoop!

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 01:16:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 If I was getting a C28 or C30 I would seriously consider one with an Atmoic 4 gas engine.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whoa! I believe the company that made these engines (Atomic 4) went out of existance almost 20 years ago, making it extremely difficult to find repair and replacement parts for them. Our local SF Bay Area sailing magazine, "Latitude 38", frequently publishes articles on how to keep an Atomic 4 running with substitute parts meant for other engines, or what modern diesels are available to re-power the boat with the minimum of difficulty and expense. Take two Catalina 30's for sale in the SF Bay Area, same model year, similar equipment; the only difference being one's diesel and the other Atomic 4, and the asking price for the Atomic 4 boat will probably be many thousands of dollars less, because no one with even a slight familiarity of this issue would choose the Atomic 4 boat, knowing the difficulties they would face in keeping it running.

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 05:45:39

Actually the Atomic 4 is not difficult to keep running at all! The beauty of these engines is thier simplicity. Moyer (sp?) Marine had made a biusness or keeping these gems running. There are thousands of them out there. I would not shy away from an Atomic 4 at all, save for the gasoline issues, what with the explosions and all.

On another note, this outboard vs. inboard thing has been argued to death, but for my money, I think an inboard is worth the extra trouble and expense. For no other reason (and there are others) that a stern looks so much better without the mechanical beast hanging off the back. At least the Cape Dory 25's dealt with this properly with thier outboard well. Even the C27 outboards and the Pearson 26's look a little silly, but better than the whole swing away bracket thing. I know it has it's purpose, less drag, better access, ect. I just hate the way it looks. Just one guy's opinion.

For the record, I have decided that the C27 would not be a great idea, and will stick with the C25 for now. The C30 exists as a better option, as does a number of others, like a Cape Dory (pick your size.)

Thanks!!

Lance
85 FK/SR

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 11:05:27

Like I said, a boat with an Atomic 4 would be thousands of dollars cheaper. I looked at several. There are many web sites for parts, and you can buy a complete rebuilt motor here in Southern CA for $3500.

Try finding parts for a single cylinder Farymann diesel (I looked at a lovely Cal 29 with this motor).

I've never owned one, but it seemed to me that parts and replacements were generally available. The guy who surveyed my C25 agreed with me about the Farymann and suggested sticking with an Atomic 4 if I went with an inboard.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:13:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">modern diesels are available to re-power the boat with the minimum of difficulty and expense<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure if I would describe $8K+ (not including installation) as minimum expense for a boat often sold for about $20K.

A friend had the A4 engine on his '78 C30. He said it was relatively easy to work on, and replacement parts were readily available because there are so many A4's out there and companies have thus stepped up to the plate to acknowledge and serve the market. His major beef with it was the limited range of the gas engine with one tank of gas verses diesel. This issue became more into play on his voyage to Hawaii.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 21:16:56

I stand corrected! I had not heard that aftermarket parts makers were fabricating and supplying Atomic 4 parts. And Jim B. is perfectly correct about the dangers of buying a boat with an obscure brand of diesel engine that is no longer in production. If I ever get a bigger boat with an inboard diesel, I hope the engine is a Volvo Penta or Yanmar, as these companies have been around for a long time and look like they will continue to be in the future. Meanwhile, although it's ugly hanging off the transom (and not even on centerline!), I still appreciate the simplicity and relatively low cost of 5~10 hp outboards.

Edited by - on

Lee T
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2004 : 14:57:42

I have a C27 with an outboard that I love, but I don't think I would buy a C27 with an inboard. The reason is that the engine compartment is incredibly tight. Before I bought mine I looked at one with an Atomic 4; I asked the owner how he manages to even change to oil and he said he had to use a mirror in one hand to see the aft half of the engine.

I have an 8 hp high-thrust Yamaha outboard, with engine controls in the cockpit, and I would very highly recommend this setup. It might be a little more power than you'd need for a 25 (I reach 6 knots at about 2/3 throttle), but can't hurt.

I agree that a C30 is a huge step up from a C27, while a C27 is not much bigger than a C25.

Lee

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2004 : 17:55:37

I once owned a Tartan 30, a fact which you old timers are probably sick of hearing. It had the single cylindar Farymann diesel. At the time, a great place for parts was Entec International, in Tualatin, OR, a suburb of Portland. Try them if you have one, or look at a boat with Farymann. They are VERY simple engines and run " forever".....

The single cylinder engine would shake your eye teeth out, but access was a breeze, in that S&S designed the boat to have the engine at the base of the mast, directly over the keel, where, IMHO, the weight should be, not under the cockpit sole. Totally accessible and very easy to maintain.

BTW: in the low 20s range, I would MUCH rather have this boat than a Catalina 30, especially if I was going out in the snot, or racing. It was not a great "motorboat" in that the engine produced heat in the cabin in summer, etc., and it was not fast under power, but the sucker would outsail any Catalina 30. No offense intended, but a knowledgable surveyor and many others have confirmed this opinion many, many times. The Practical Sailor review is good. Ever read "How to Buy the Best Sailboat" by Chuck Gustofson? About half the photos in that book about how to do things right show examples from the Tartan 30.

Okay....I am back to the Cat 25 SK because of its utility and trailerability....but moving up? No Catalina for me! Too many other solid, well designed choices. They make great floating apartments, and women love the accommodations, but a big boat means ocean to me. Just my opinion, but NO INTENT to insult Catalinas. I just believe what I am saying and so I offer another opinion.

I HATE the look of the outboard, too, but the Yammy 9.9 electric start high thrust can out pull and out run lots of diesels....It would motor right past the Tartan.....but put the sails up? Another story...

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR
Commodore of Vice

Edited by - Gary B. on 08/08/2004 19:01:36

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