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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/20/2004 : 19:48:30

It has occurred to me that in the year that I have had my boat I do not believe I have ever used a winch handle on my primaries. 150, 135, 110, 80, none of them have required a handle enough to warrant moving it from one of my halyard winches. If it is very hard I do head up to make it easier. Is this pretty much what everyone is doing?
Loosely related to this; I have decided the Racing 220 Clam cleats were a mistake. Sometime ago we all discussed what type of cleat worked best with our sheets. I replaced old plastic clams with new aluminum ones. My sheets are pretty soft and they get seriously stuck in these cleats. I have new Harken 280 offshore cams coming from LayLine. Those who believed cams were better for sheets were right. (I hope!)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 20:27:40

Frank - you must have gorilla strength! In 15 knots with a 155% up, my genoa trimmer needs a winch - and he weighs 240 lbs!!
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 20:39:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It has occurred to me that in the year that I have had my boat I do not believe I have ever used a winch handle on my primaries. 150, 135, 110, 80, none of them have required a handle enough to warrant moving it from one of my halyard winches. If it is very hard I do head up to make it easier. Is this pretty much what everyone is doing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whenever the windstrength is over about 8-10 kts, I put a winch handle in the winch and leave it there until I tack. Many sailors don't put as much tension on their jibsheets as they should for maximum efficiency to windward. On a beat, I usually trim the 110% until it all but touches the leeward spreader (about 1"). I usually trim the 150% until it is about 8" from the leeward spreader. When the wind puffs and lulls, and the dacron sailcloth stretches and shrinks, I adjust the jibsheet in and out an inch or two, to maintain the same distance from the spreader. In winds over about 10 kts., it starts to become difficult to trim the jib that close to the spreader and to make those small adjustments without a winch handle. Also, the winch handle takes the strain off your hands and fingers.

If you head up, to make it easier to trim the jib, that's usually OK, but you lose speed and drive in the sails whenever you do it. That's only an important consideration if you're racing, or if you're sailing in strong winds and big seas, when you need to keep the boat driving to keep control.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have decided the Racing 220 Clam cleats were a mistake. Sometime ago we all discussed what type of cleat worked best with our sheets. I replaced old plastic clams with new aluminum ones. My sheets are pretty soft and they get seriously stuck in these cleats. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I used the plastic clam cleats from 1981 until about 3-4 years ago, when I replaced them with aluminum ones. The very reason why I use them is because they are easy to cleat and uncleat and adjust with the least amount of effort, even in the strongest winds. One thing that I might do different from you is that, as the wind strength increases, I put additional wraps on the winch, to take the load off the cleats. If you only put 2-3 wraps on the winch, I could imagine that the line might get stuck in the cleat in very strong wind. Occasionally, when I'm sitting on the high side of the cockpit, I'll need to pop the jibsheet out of the cleat, and I can just flip the sheet and it'll come out easily.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 21:01:33

The 110 I just tweaked the last turn or so, with a handle, just, as stated, to get it an inch or so from the spreader. I used cams....straight up to get out.
(New girl is a different story, big a$$ 2 speed winch to crank in the huge 135 with a double (as in two black handle cylinders on top of each other) winch handle that weighs ten pounds by itself. After the first day I couldn't lift my arms.....

Oscar
Catalina 42 # 76, Lady Kay
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - Oscar on 07/20/2004 21:05:26

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 21:17:30

Everytime the 150 genoa comes out, the winch handle comes out.

Bert

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 21:44:12

I've bought a couple of cam cleats I'm going to mount for the genny sheets. Instead of using risers, I plan to place them so the sheet will go under the aft horn of the standard cleat, about a 60-degree turn to the cam. So the horn cleat lowers the angle to the cam and takes some of the pressure off (for easier releases)--at least that's my theory.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 22:41:48

I never used to bother with the winch handle when I had standard winches; just luff up a little and haul the sheet in with brute strength. However, now that I have self-tailers (installed them last winter), I have discovered that they work much better if cranked with a winch handle. The extra gearing inside makes them a little "stickier" than the non-self-tailers. I am now totally spoiled...wouldn't have another sailboat without self-tailing primaries! Must be getting old and soft. Next thing I will want in the boat is (gasp) air conditioning, and refrigerator/freezer in the galley.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 00:10:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [quote] If you only put 2-3 wraps on the winch, I could imagine that the line might get stuck in the cleat in very strong wind. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From the mouths of babes, I only put one wrap on my winches because I do not use a handle. While single handing it is easier to flip on and off one wrap than several.

I also tend to be across from the winch so the angle of my 220s is a hassle as well. I am going to leave the 220s and add the cams with a sheeting lead angle that will put them across from me as the sheet leaves the drum.

I wonder if all of this has something to do with how my gloves are holding up.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 07:14:47

Gloves? Oh ssstop it you brute.....

Oscar
Catalina 42 # 76, Lady Kay
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 08:05:46

Looks like some big paws fit in those gloves!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 08:07:42

Not really, the gloves are a size medium and are large on me. My ring finger is a 9.5. I on the other hand am anything but a medium, at 5'9" and 300 lb. I am gale force rail meat.

What brand gloves do people wear? How often? I wear my "High Seas" every sail, I have ordered a new pair of Harkens. I use my gloves for hauling in as much as running out. I especially need them with my new 1/4" halyards. I wish I could have afforded the fancy spliced ones.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 07/21/2004 08:15:26

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 08:13:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Frank - you must have gorilla strength!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks to Derek, I now have this vision of you with a sloping forehead and hair all over your body.

When I tack, I put two wraps on the winch and pull in the sheet as far as I can. (More than two wraps will result in more frequent overrides.) If the wind is strong enough, I add a wrap or two, insert the winch handle and fine-trim the jibsheet. I use a $12 plastic, non-locking winch handle, instead of the heavy chrome thing that came with the boat.

I also singlehand a lot, and that sounds like a lot more motion than you use, but, if you become methodical about it, you'll have fewer problems and use less energy. Let the winches do the hard work for you. By comparison, pulling a couple of extra wraps off the winch when you tack is a worthwhile trade-off if it saves you that much hard work and worn out gloves.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 08:22:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 
What brand gloves do people wear? How often?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I hope I won't be castigated and shunned as a result of this admission, but I have never purchased a pair of gen-u-ine sailing gloves. I use the $2.98 leather gardening gloves from Home Depot

(sometimes on sale for as little as $0.98!). They are not quite as flexible as sailing gloves, I guess, but they work well enough for me for the casual, non-racing style of sailing that I do. West Marine can keep their $50 gloves.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 10:45:21

Depending on the wind, I always use my winches, with handles, to fine tune my headsail trim. When the wind warrants an extra wrap or two on the winch drum, it is pretty much a sure thing that I'm not going to grunt the jibsheet in.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...I only put one wrap on my winches because I do not use a handle. While single handing it is easier to flip on and off one wrap than several.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Putting only one wrap on the drum pretty much defeats the purpose of the winches, because the bulk of the jibsheet loads are supposed to be tranferred to the winch and not to the holding device (cam cleat, clam, horn,...etc). I put enough wraps on my drum so that even my 9 year old daughter can hold the jibsheet with one ungloved hand.

As far as singlehanding and extra wraps on the drum goes, part of my pre-tack routine is to uncleat the jibsheet and remove any extra wraps from the drum so when I tack, I simply flip the single or double wrap from the drum.

I'm probably the only one who still prefers the horn cleats for securing the jib sheets. When securing the sheets, I just take two or three round turns around the horn cleat(no figure 8's, no hitches) and then give it a gentle tug. With the proper wraps on the drum, this is enough to hold the jibsheet. To undo, it's just a matter of gently unwinding the sheet. No binding, no chafing, no muss, no fuss!

Another useful thing with the horn cleat, aside from being able to use it as a extra mooring cleat, I can lead the jibsheet under the outboard horn and then use it to assist me when trimming the sheet from anywhere in the cockpit.

Edited by - dlucier on 07/21/2004 10:47:02

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 10:58:59

I've never used sailing gloves either - can't stand those bare fingers sticking out! I buy baseball batting gloves - they have reinforced palms and last a long time

Derek

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 11:04:13

There shouldn't be any need to unwrap the sheet from the winch drum.
Gently pull the aft part of the sheet gently upwards and it unwraps itself.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 19:54:41

Love my Harken Black Magic gloves, beats rope burn in high winds.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 22:29:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...Another useful thing with the horn cleat, aside from being able to use it as a extra mooring cleat, I can lead the jibsheet under the outboard horn and then use it to assist me when trimming the sheet from anywhere in the cockpit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I like that observation--it corresponds to my plan to position cam cleats for a sheet coming off the single horn. Hooked under the horn (not a UT reference), I should be able to snap the sheet into the cam or pop it out and have the same control Don speaks of.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/21/2004 22:31:04

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 10:55:34

With both our C25 and now C250 we always tale the jib sheet around the leeward winch, then wrap twice on the windward and tale around the horn, put in the handle and trim. This allows for always being on the windward rail, easy visibility of the teltales for trimming and you can hold the sheet with minimum effort. With the selftaler on the 250 no need for a horn is the only difference. The best advantage with this set up is when singlehanded you operate from one side of the cockpit only and don't have to worry about stepping on or over lines when changing operations. It takes some practice, but once use to the routine it makes trimming a snap and with crew, everyone stays on the windward rail keeping the boat in balance.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 10:59:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sailgal
 Love my Harken Black Magic gloves, beats rope burn in high winds.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I love my Black Magics too. They have saved my palms more than once.
Now if I could just get rid of these funky tan lines and get the even funkier smell out of the gloves!

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 11:17:23

We sailed last week end with a variety of friends for the High Sierra Regatta, I run kind of a democratic race crew-we discuss everythig before doing it. One of the fellows didn't like using the winch handles. He just grabbed the line with his gloved hands and pulled as hard as he could. Personally I would have liked him to use the handle more because eventhough he got it in pretty tight there was still a little more to go for better up wind sailing.
I have sailed a number of races by myself and found no problems using the winch and tailing by myself. Just remember to wrap the line on the up wind wench right after adjusting the sheet on the tight side. This makes it ready for the next tack so you don't have to rush things.
Got to go now the car pool is here.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 11:17:33

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 12:56:33

Occasionally I use cheap, leather palmed work gloves to pull in the anchor. I have also duct-taped a quarter to the palm to use as a sort of sail palm when doing sail repairs.

I used to rarely use the winch handle (never use gloves because I have nice soft, fat jib sheets), but I now tend to use the winch handle more because it just seems easier to make adjustments.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 13:42:09

wrap the line on the up wind wench right after adjusting the sheet on the tight side. This makes it ready for the next tack so you don't have to rush things.

Sounds a little kinky to me

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 13:46:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 I used to rarely use the winch handle (never use gloves because I have nice soft, fat jib sheets), but I now tend to use the winch handle more because it just seems easier to make adjustments.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Every year, I wish the handle was a little longer...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:40:26

last night I used the handle with my 150 and was able to get a much finer trim while heading to the weather mark.

Edited by - on

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