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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Loose footed main? Foot shelf?

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/24/2004 : 13:03:36

What are the Pros/Cons of a loose footed main?

How does it compare to a mainsail with a foot shelf?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus 1984 C25 #4679

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 13:28:43

I can't think of any cons. I have a footed North main with the shelf foot. It can be hard to adjust the outhaul - have to put it on a winch. The loose foot makes it very easy to control sail shape.

I guess the only con would be, if you are just a cruiser or daysailor, not a racer, you probably would not adjust the outhaul very much anyways, so why pay for a racing main?

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 15:39:41

I'm not a racer, but I love the adjustability of my new loose-footed Doyle mainsail. The Chesapeake can vary from "slick cam" to blowing like snot. Being able to belly out the main to catch the zephyrs and harden it in the fresh breezes is terrific.

Brooke

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 20:05:44

I've never used a loose-footed main, but have used a shelf-footed main since 1981. The shelf foot has a deep pocket along the boom. In light air, the deep shelf foot generates a lot of drive. As speed increases, you flatten the shelf by increasing tension on the outhaul. I have a three-part outhaul that makes it easy to apply as much tension as you need. As the boat becomes overpowered, you eliminate the shelf foot by using a flattening reef, which is only about a foot deep.

The advocates of the loose-footed main claim that, because the shelf-footed main is attached to the boom, it disturbs the flow of air along the foot of the sail, reducing the effectiveness of the shelf-footed mainsail. They claim that the loose-footed main doesn't have that effect. While that is undoubtedly true, I believe the amount of turbulence is inconsequential. They also claim that the loose-footed main is "more adjustable," although, in that respect, I think they are usually comparing the loose-footed mainsail with an ordinary footed mainsail, and not a shelf-footed mainsail.

I've raced against loose-footed mainsails, and believe my shelf-footed main is every bit as adjustable, and can point every bit as high and foot as fast as any. The loose-footed main is a huge improvement over an ordinary footed mainsail, but I think the jury is still out as to whether it is better than a shelf-footed main. I just got home from a day of strong winds in which I alternately deepened and flattened the pocket with the puffs and lulls, and, although we weren't racing, the boat pointed like a witch, stayed on her feet and overtook and passed everything on the lake.

The loose-footed main might be the next step up in mainsail technology, but I haven't seen proof yet. I still see some big-time racers using shelf-footed mains, and they can afford anything they want.

Whichever sail you get, use all the adjustments frequently. If you don't, it's just wasted technology anyway.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/25/2004 09:08:02

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:30:08

Hi all,

Some questions...

I don't know if I have a shelf-footed main or a regular main. How can I tell? (It is an original sail, I think, about '92, bought it used.)

Is a loose footed main cut differently than a regular main, how?

Can I simply remove the foot bolt rope and run loose footed?

thanks,

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:02:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Can I simply remove the foot bolt rope and run loose footed?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what I did, but I replaced the original, plastic slug at the clew with a larger, all-stainless slug. If you don't have a clew slug, I've heard others have successfully wrapped some webbing through the clew ring and around the boom.

While the sail is probably not cut like a true loose-footed main, it cost much less than a new main and I feel I get better performance because, like Steve suggested, I am now able to make frequent, effective adjustments to the outhaul.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:10:18

heres a nice photo of a shelf footed North main

You can see the cringle for the flattening reef, plus that big extra panel of sailcloth sewn in at the bottom the sail

I'm going to send my North out to be reconditioned - currently sailing a standard Catalina main. There is a big difference. The North has a much bigger roach and with the shelf foot, presents much more sail area. The boat points higher, is faster in light air, and much more adjustable sailshape with the shelf foot

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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423 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:28:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The boat points higher, is faster in light air, and much more adjustable sailshape with the shelf foot
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm... I always thought you had more or at the very least easier adjustability with the loose foot main. Personally I know I did over my old shelf foot main. But I'm sure everyone has their own take on this.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 17:15:20

I absolutely have more adjustability with my loose foot main than with the shelf foot. Absolute comparisons are difficult, because my shelf foot was old and baggy. All things considered, I feel I have better light air control with the loose foot, and I can certainly better flatten the sail when the breeze kicks up. With the shelf, I had to reef sooner because I could only flatten the shelf so far.

I was a doubter, but now I am a believer.

Brooke

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 17:24:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...You can see the cringle for the flattening reef, plus that big extra panel of sailcloth sewn in at the bottom the sail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't that the cunningham cringle?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 18:39:32

I was comparing to a stock Catalina main

That cringle is matched by one on the leech so its for the flattening reef

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 18:43:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hmmmm... I always thought you had more or at the very least easier adjustability with the loose foot main. Personally I know I did over my old shelf foot main.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I absolutely have more adjustability with my loose foot main than with the shelf foot.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There are three types of mainsails: (1) footed mainsails, (2) shelf-footed mainsails, and (3) loose-footed mainsails. I suspect some of you guys are confusing shelf-footed mains with footed mains. You probably had ordinary footed mainsails, not shelf-footed mainsails. Shelf-footed mainsails are common on racing boats, but they are rarely seen on a cruiser, like a C-25. They weren't Catalina options (at least not when I bought my boat in 1981). They have to be special-ordered when you buy a new sail, and only a fairly knowledgeable racer would think of ordering that option when he buys a new sail. If your old sail was an ordinary footed mainsail, you would undoubtedly have more adjustability with a loose-footed mainsail, but I don't believe a loose-footed mainsail is any more adjustable than a shelf-footed mainsail. Although it isn't obvious in Jim's photo, the pocket at the foot of the shelf-footed mainsail is extremely deep. The sail can be adjusted from a very deep pocket to a very flat sail.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Isn't that the cunningham cringle?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A flattening reef consists of a cringle in the luff of the sail, about a foot above the boom, and another cringle in the leech of the sail, about a foot above the boom. When you use your normal reefing gear to take that short reef, it takes the belly out of the mainsail, and makes it very flat, for driving to windward in strong winds. Usually, I don't use both cringles to flatten the mainsail. Instead, I just pull the aft end of the boom up to the leech cringle. It can be set in only about 5 seconds, and it can be shaken out in about the same time, and it flattens the shelf-foot almost as much as if I bring both cringles down to the boom.

The cringle in the luff of the mainsail (a foot above the boom) is also commonly used as a cunningham cringle.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/27/2004 19:07:28

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 19:30:05

Steve, I had a shelf foot. It was recut by sailmaker David Baxter of Norfolk a few years ago to flatten the sail. I have more adjustability now with the loose foot than I did both before and after the old main was recut.

Brooke

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 20:12:39

OK, now here's the question - can I have my shelf footed North recut to be full battened and loose footed when I have it reconditioned?

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oldsalt
Admiral

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578 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 20:17:36

In '83 when I bought Silver Girl a shelf footed Catalina mainsail was delivered with the boat. I believe it was an option but I'm not really certain. I enjoyed the flexiblity of the deep shelf foot and it provided excellent control under a variety of conditions but my Ullman fully battened, loose footed, main provides even more. The Ullman from CD is a better cut, somewhat higher quality sail overall, so that may bias my opinion regarding which is better, but I'm glad I went the loose footed route this time around.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 20:58:04

Jim, take it to a good sailmaker and ask if it's possible and what it would cost. I'm sure it can be loose footed -- that's not hard. The full batten piece will be harder -- and pricier.

Brooke

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Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 21:26:41

I ordered a loose footed Main from Catalina Direct about 7 weeks ago they said that 12 more sailers wanted them too? Has anyone else got their sails yet? Any books on how to use it?

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 21:32:47

Can anyone answer Jim's other two questions. I am sure there are a lot of us who would like to know.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is a loose footed main cut differently than a regular main, how?

Can I simply remove the foot bolt rope and run loose footed?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 21:55:13

I ordered a loose footed Main from Catalina Direct about 7 weeks ago they said that 12 more sailers wanted them too? Has anyone else got their sails yet? Any books on how to use it?

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 10:58:00

Thanks Steve for setting me straight. I never knew there was a difference between footed and shelf footed. I'm sure my original main was footed so I really can't comment on the difference between shelf footed and loose.
As my grandfather always used to tell me "Its what you learn after you know it all that counts" and it seems the I more I learn about sailing the more I realize how little I know about it!

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 12:17:42

Jim Baumgart,

Thanks for the photo.

Is your boom fixed to the mast, i.e., it does not slide up and down? The reason I ask is that I see no boom down-haul line.

I have installed everything I can to manage the shape of the main...given that it is old and baggy.

In addition to the boom down-haul, I have a cunningham with it's down haul, a purchase to the flattening reef on the leech so together I can reef a foot down. Then I have lower and upper single-line reefing. My out-haul is 4:1. I have a doubling purchase (wire) on the boom vang that gives me 8:1.

Truth be told, I probably mis-use these all in combination and interfere with the efficiency of whatever the old sail would give me.

Now I am wondering if I can get any better drive by going loose footed with my old sail. I have a newer one just bent, so I could experiment with the old one as a loose foot.

In our conditions it usually goes from little wind to 20kts+ in a couple of hours, the force changes that much also traversing N-S as a result of wind shadows on SF Bay. So, a typical day has frequent reefing and shaking out. In the afternoons I am almost always overpowered, heeling 25+ degrees, weather helm and slow into the wind! When the wind is on the beam or a little forward, with a reef in the main and the roller furler pulled down 10-20%, we fly.

I am looking for ideas. My Buddy Paul gave me a book on sail trim that I haven't read yet. Maybe my answers are there.

Your thoughts?

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

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austin72
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 13:22:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Scotd
 I ordered a loose footed Main from Catalina Direct about 7 weeks ago they said that 12 more sailers wanted them too? Has anyone else got their sails yet? Any books on how to use it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Scot,
I got loose footed, full battened about 3 weeks ago, but did take 6 weeks for me to receive. I spoke with a guy named Lowell at Catalina Direct and he said spring and summer are 'bad' times to order new sails. Ask yourself if a loft is more concerned with a $650 main for us, or that big J boat who wants mylar and kevlar for that big race.

Anyhow it's a very nice sail, and the ability to control the sail shape is really a big advantage, even for a novice/intermediate daysailer like myself. It's so much easier to sail in light air, improve pointing etc. Also, maybe it's just because my old main was, um...25 years old...but I swear it's reduced weather helm on my boat by leaps and bounds.

As far as rigging and use, it's a cinch, and I've just been playing around with mine to learn how to use it (stay mature folks!).

However, if you're looking for a good read on all things sailing, check out 'The Annapolis Book of Seamanship' by John Rousmaniere. It's been invaluable to me, and it's also just a plain good read.

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