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Racing Portsmith questions

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Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2004 : 22:27:55

Well If you have read the Racing PHRF question, I now find we are rated in our club races by the portsmith method,We lost to a McGregor 26,SK by one second.

ANYWAY, I have a couple of questions, Does anyone still use the portsmith rating? Our sailing club consists of most 22-26' boats and we still use the portsmith system. is this common? Does anyone else rate boats differently if they dry sail them than if they are in the water full time? we have quite a few Catalina 22's that are dry sailed just for racing purposes and are thinking that is a distinct advantage and want to change ratings, does anyone do this? Thanks again for all your Information!

Alan

Alan & Eileen
2001 Catalina 310 Hull #155
"Anam Cara"
ex-1987 C25 TR/SK #5612
"LEPRECHAUN"
Troy Ohio USA / Lake Erie-Catawba Island
ASA 101 103 104

"The clink of an anchor - chain, the 'Yo-Ho!' of a well time crew, the flapping of huge sails - I love all these sounds."

John 'Rob Roy' MacGregor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2004 : 22:55:26

My club uses Portsmouth ratings, but I don't know why they chose Portsmouth over PHRF. That decision was made in the 1970s, and I don't recall anyone ever discussing a change to PHRF since that time.

We don't give different ratings based on whether the boat is slipped or dry sailed. If you do a good job of scrubbing your bottom, keel and rudder, you can be reasonably competitive with boats that are dry sailed. The real difference is that most people don't make the effort needed to scrub it properly, especially when the water gets cold. Dry sailors don't have to scrub as conscientiously, but they have to do all the work of launching and retrieving the boat every time they sail.

We used to have a few Hobie 16s race with us, and we presently have a Corsair 24 tri hull racing with us, but I don't see any reason why Portsmouth has any particular application to multi hulls. It seems pretty equitable to me.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/28/2004 23:00:32

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2004 : 23:21:01

Very timely! I am very interested in using Portsmouth for the nationals next year because it is adjusted for the wind and is time on time. We used to use it when I used to race and it was very fair. It is a little more work for the committee because of documenting the wind ranges but I think it could solve a lot of our issues. Steve could you please supply me with the rating sheet you all use?

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 00:11:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 My club uses Portsmouth ratings, but I don't know why they chose Portsmouth over PHRF. That decision was made in the 1970s, and I don't recall anyone ever discussing a change to PHRF since that time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

I was talking to my Dad about this and BLSA was using PHRF in the early 80's. I asked him about the change an he thought it happened after he retired from BLSA racing.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 00:28:22

Frank - we tried "time on time" one year (in PHRF) and gave up on it as it wasn't fair to the faster boats in light winds. (We didn't make adjustments for wind conditions).
If a fast boat sat in a hole with a slow boat, the slower one was gaining time on him all the time they sat there! (And you know how our winds are...) On the lake all the keelboats race PHRF and the multihulls use Portsmouth.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 07:53:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve could you please supply me with the rating sheet you all use?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The hyperlink below will take you to the Portsmouth ratings for my club.

This is the first time I've looked at our ratings in several years, and it looks like some things have changed. For many years, we had different ratings for C25s for standard and tall rig and keel type. It appears no distinction is made anymore. If I had a standard rig, I'd definitely be complaining. Also, there is at least one class of boats that has been racing at our lake for a long time that isn't listed.

http://www.blsa.us/raceratings.html

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/29/2004 08:06:11

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 11:05:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve could you please supply me with the rating sheet you all use?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The hyperlink below will take you to the Portsmouth ratings for my club.

This is the first time I've looked at our ratings in several years, and it looks like some things have changed. For many years, we had different ratings for C25s for standard and tall rig and keel type. It appears no distinction is made anymore. If I had a standard rig, I'd definitely be complaining. Also, there is at least one class of boats that has been racing at our lake for a long time that isn't listed.

http://www.blsa.us/raceratings.html
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks
[url="http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/"]portsmouth home

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 07/29/2004 11:48:37

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 11:29:14

I asked our racing chairman for some basic info about the Portsmouth ratings, and he gave the following response:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Portsmouth ratings for USA are from committee of US Sailing. Complete
ratings and guidelines are found on US Sailing web site under "racing -
handicap - Portsmouth".
Different ratings definitely exist for different keels and masts (one
model's rating changed for 2004 numbers, just released). I have tried
to use proper ratings, but we have not had any wing keels race past year
to my knowledge.
Advantage over PHRF include: Portsmouth is national, not regional.
Ratings are based on wind strength. See web site for discussion of
other parameters.
BLSA chooses not to use sail size rating adjustments.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 11:56:04

Steve - how are these numbers adjusted for varying wind strengths?
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 12:09:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Steve - how are these numbers adjusted for varying wind strengths?
Derek<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As I understand it, different numbers are provided for four different wind strengths. The BLSA website doesn't appear to list the numbers for the four wind speed ranges. I suspect the number listed is some sort of a base number. The Portsmouth Ratings website lists the numbers for the different windspeeds at the following website: http://www.ussailing.org/Portsmouth/tables04/tables04off-1.htm

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 12:32:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Steve - how are these numbers adjusted for varying wind strengths?
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is all in the links I provided. The idea is if you are tender your number goes up to help you, if you are still your number goes down.

OFFSHORE CLASSES
USSA
DPN
WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
[url="http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/beaufort.htm"]Beaufort calculator[/url]
***************************
CODE DefaultPN 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Catalina 25 (FK/SK/WK) 93.6 95.2 93.9 93.3 92.6

Catalina 25 (FK/SK,TM) 90.3 92.2 90.7 89.7 89.2

Catalina 25 (WK,T.Mast) 95.1 [97.3] 95.4 93.0

Catalina 250 95.7 (95.0)

It appears the tall rig wing is the slowest boat except at 12-19 mph. What I see here also make sense to me, the tall rigs are faster; period. You may not know how to sail one but if you do there is nothing that beats more sail area on the same boat.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 13:39:17

Thanks guys!
Now I know why we don't use Portsmouth! The RC would go nuts trying to affix wind speed numbers when the wind can go from 2 to 20 and back again...they would spend more time in the protest room than on the course

Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 13:52:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Thanks guys!
Now I know why we don't use Portsmouth! The RC would go nuts trying to affix wind speed numbers when the wind can go from 2 to 20 and back again...they would spend more time in the protest room than on the course

Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And why it is a good system for Cheney

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 14:28:28

Frank - I look forward to racing under it.
Derek

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 22:18:25

I spoke with a friend of mine who used to race his Catalina 25 (Now has a 30' TR) and he said that during a race the RC used to take 3 wind measurements, just to keep out of the protest! Sounds like a lot to be straight on!

.So watch the boats, line,times,wind,take measuremnts,lift/lower flags,use gun. WOW, the fun is neverending! Thanks for all the input!

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 18:25:50

IF we are going to use handicaps to 'equalize" things, it seems to me that we need to agree on numbers and rules that will be consistent and the same from year to year and not changed for each venue each year. I think that is why we had some controversy this year in Portland, although it was the Association that agreed to what we did, not just our Fleet's call.

While Frank has some ideas about what he would like to see, I think it is really the Association that needs to address rule changes and racing rules, period. There is just too much ambiguity in our class rules now.....no addressing of asyms, poles, etc. We need to sort out the issues and agree upon what we would like to see....not change the system each year. IMHO, it would prevent much misunderstanding, etc.....

Another thing: IF you have a handicapping system that is "fair"....then why all the talk about separate fleets for spins and non-spins? I just don't get it, especially when the numbers of boats participating is so small most years.....PLEASE explain to me....and Steve Milby, I think, just WHY there must be so many distinct classes? I DO agree that 250s and 25s are SO different in hulls, let alone rigs and keels, that they should race as a separate fleet. (caps for emphasis, not anger!)

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 19:26:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">we need to agree on numbers and rules that will be consistent and the same from year to year and not changed for each venue each year. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gary, I couldn't agree more. It's absolutely crazy to have to re-invent the wheel every year. The National Association, as a whole, ought to decide whether we are going to be governed by PHRF or Portsmouth, and then use it every year thereafter. Why should we subject ourselves to contentiousness over that issue every year? They're both widely accepted systems, and recognized as fundamentally fair. Just pick one.

Likewise, the national regatta has had the same racing classes for over 20 years, but currently we are having a discussion of whether we should change them. These matters are too important to the national association to subject them to review every time there's a new sheriff in town.

The person who volunteers to organize the national regatta each year is usually a person who has never done something quite like that before. He's often somewhat knowledgeable about racing in general, but by no stretch of the imagination is he usually a true expert on the subtleties of different rating systems, etc. Why not give him guidance, by specifying such things, so he doesn't have to needlessly tax his brain with such complex issues? He should be free to spend his time on figuring out how to get people to attend, and how to get a brewery to donate free beer...you know, the really important stuff!

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/30/2004 19:42:40

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 22:27:34

"get a brewery to donate free beer..."
Can we get Gary B. to trailer a few kegs of Oregon beer to KS...??

Derek

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