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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

25 or 250

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drttu
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/10/2004 : 17:17:23

Has anyone sailed both a Catalina 25 and 250 and if so, what is the difference in sailing performance? From the little I have read, the 25 is a better sailing boat but since I own one, I may be biased. Just wondering if anyone here at experience on both boats.

Edited by - on

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2004 : 10:06:00

Hi

On Cayman we have two Catalina 25's SR/WK and two Catalina 250's WK. Every time we go out the Catalina 25's have not failed to beat the newer 250's. The 25 points better, sails faster, and can carry more sail. The Cat 25's here have 150 genoas.

So if you are in to sailing I would say the 25 is a better bet. However the accommodation is bigger on the 250 with it's head compartment. Once again though, large open spaces aren't so good if you're heading a little way offshore.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2004 : 14:57:19

I'd be interested to hear Jerry's ("Pretty Penny II") opinion. He used to sail a C25 and changed to a 250.
Derek

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 00:19:33

First let me say that I owned Pretty Penny a C25 wing reto for 14 years and enjoyed ever minute on her. The new boat was the result of the General seeing a 2002 250 at a boat show and it was love at first sit. She loved the open space, the head room and the fact that she didn't bop her head when she went forward to the v-berth past the head. The 25 has a lot more storage than the 250, but like I said not nearly the siting or standing room unless you pop the top. The 250 she saw had a wheel and marine head both of which we now have in our new boat. She just did not like the porta-pottie, even though she never cleaned it. You all know how that goes. What I am saying is that you must decide what you are going to do with the boat. If it is crusing then the 250 is my choice on inland lakes and rivers. If you think you want to take it outside I would go for the 25. The WK 25 is also easier to trailer since it only drafts 34 inches and can be launch from most ramps that a swing can be. The 250 WK drafts 41 inches, which doesn't sound like much, but 7 inches sure makes a difference at launching time. There are two reasons for this: one the extra 7 inches requires a steeper deaper ramp and the fact that the wing is 18 inches more forward than the 25 wing also requires a longer tung extension and a bigger 4x4 because you will probably have the vehicle in the water up to the bumper.
As for performance I have not lost a race yet to a 25 in winds up to 10mph, but I have lost plenty in winds 15 and up. The C25 is a much more stable boat in rough weather and higher winds. She rolls up slow and feels under control at all times. The C250 on the other hand, rolls up instantly and then stiffens, which until you get use to it can be frightening the first time you put up all the canvas and let her fall off. That is why you will see lots of thread posts on reefing early in the C250. I reef at 12 to 15 on the main and then the jib above 15. The 250 requires that it be balance to sail well. That means no gunnels in the water and at no higher than 20 degrees of heel. Best is around 12-15 degrees. On our WK we put it to the test and only in a large puff did we get the gunnel in the water, while under normal sailing conditions at 32 degrees you ran out of rudder and she was coming up no matter what and that is with the big rudder.
As to pointing, the 25 WK will not point as high as the 250 WK. The best I ever got mine is 40 degrees on a close haul in 25mph winds, were as my 250 will point at 30 all the times and in winds of 10-15 will, if I really work at sail trim, 23.5-25 degrees. The fin and SK 25's also point much better than the 25 wing by at least 10 degrees.
I hope this rambling on has helped you in some way and not bored the rest of the membership. Good luck on whatever you decide to do and if you have more questions put them out there for all to see and help.

Edited by - frog0911 on 08/12/2004 00:26:08

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 21:49:01

Frog: Are you measuring pointing with a GPS or a the windex? As I recall, the 250 WK has inboard jib sheeting, while I know, of course, that the C-25 sheets to the rail (with the genny outside of the stanchions). That suggests a pointing advantage for the 250 WK. But the direction of the bow does not necessarily tell the whole story... A boat trimmed flat and hard on a beat may generate a little more leeway, not to mention less speed, than one trimmed a little less with the bow pointed a little lower to the wind. The answer lies on the race course--what did the racers see at Nationals?

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 23:02:10

I measure the pointing degrees based on the windex for the numbers, since the tail of my Windex 15 is 12.5 degrees wide as measured against the fixed angle taps on the masthead, but actual performance was with other boats sailing inside me chewing up distance while I was forced to tack twice to their once. In my 250 I chased down two 25's JAM's with wings to the mark because I could point higher and they had to tack to round the mark in the latest Mug race. I just could not get the speed to keep up with Tom and his big spinnaker so he left me in his wake. He did take some nice pictures of PennyII as he passed by though.
I don't know what the racers saw at the nationals, but I'm sure Derek can give us some info about that.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2004 : 11:23:30

With the lack of wind at the Nationals there was no one pointing well! On Alice's TR 25 we did beat the other 2 250's (Tony was a race unto himself!!) and it seemed that we made most of our gains on the downwind leg - even passing SR's with chutes. This also held true in Race 5 when we DID have wind.
Derek (heading back to Texas today!)

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2004 : 15:25:47

Derek, missed you last Saturday. We were all looking forward to hearing all about the nationals. Hope you had a great vacation in Colorado. What is the status of you Cat trip to the First Coast?

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2004 : 12:28:00

I was in light winds (5-10) yesterday on a beam reach coming up a channel into the marina, so the water was very smooth (behind a breakwater). A 250 caught me and passed me. It looked like sails were trimmed the same - at least any differentce was small. Both had the same set of sails (main and 110 jib).

I was surprised that the 250 was so much faster...

Any thoughts?? (are 250s SR or TR?)

Bill B
Wind Dancer 84C25/SR/FK/4036

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2004 : 23:25:51

A few tall 250s were made, but discontinued in a short period. Likewise, the larger headsails were discontinued for the WB models--too tender for the general public.

The 250's lighter displacement and broader, flatter hull (particularly astern) pretty much explains its generally better light air performance (notwithstanding against a C-25 sailed by Derek). When the wind pipes up and the waves build, the heavier boat with the finer entry and deeper ballast gains the advantage. The lighter, flatter boat can smoke them both in a breeze if the hull, ballast, and rig are designed to plane--for example, the Melges. But the 250 is not a planing hull and rig.

All of that ignores the biggest factor, IMHO, in any contest between C-25s and C-250... the skippers. I doubt that I could beat any of the C-250 racers in this "club" in any conditions. My C-25 is not set up to do it and I haven't developed the skills.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2004 : 08:34:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 A few tall 250s were made, but discontinued in a short period. Likewise, the larger headsails were discontinued for the WB models--too tender for the general public.

The 250's lighter displacement and broader, flatter hull (particularly astern) pretty much explains its generally better light air performance (notwithstanding against a C-25 sailed by Derek). When the wind pipes up and the waves build, the heavier boat with the finer entry and deeper ballast gains the advantage. The lighter, flatter boat can smoke them both in a breeze if the hull, ballast, and rig are designed to plane--for example, the Melges. But the 250 is not a planing hull and rig.

All of that ignores the biggest factor, IMHO, in any contest between C-25s and C-250... the skippers. I doubt that I could beat any of the C-250 racers in this "club" in any conditions. My C-25 is not set up to do it and I haven't developed the skills.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, have you printed of the notice of race and forwwarded it to your club's regatta chair? I understand you are moving and it would ne nice if some of those 250s (and 25s)showed up in Wichita. Please let them know about the race.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2004 : 00:19:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Dave, have you printed of the notice of race and forwwarded it to your club's regatta chair? I understand you are moving and it would ne nice if some of those 250s (and 25s)showed up in Wichita. Please let them know about the race.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry, Frank--I meant this "club"--the forum contributors. There are no 250s in my boat club, and the C-25 owners are all casual day-sailors with fin keels and no trailers. None have shown an interest in this forum or assocation, although I've mentioned it to them. Go figure...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/29/2004 22:53:31

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 18:29:36

Hi
I feel fairly qualified to answer your question since I've owned both. I sailed my '95 250WB for four seasons('00-'030) and loved it. We primarily trailer sailed it and did some club racing. It sailed great (after putting the 3rd gen rudder on it). Trailerability was excellent although it usually took more time to rig and de-rig than say a C22. When we got a slip, IMHO the boat became a little bit more of a compromise although still a joy to sail. In my mind, it wasn't the performer that several C25's in our club were. Well, I ended up buying one of those C25's and have sailed it since mid April.
45 North is an '87 TRWK. #5608, that had been set up for racing by the original owner who was very knowledgeable and a very good racer. We now have 6 C25s in our club that are very competitive, which makes our races a lot of fun. In any given race, any one of us can win (although I am fairly consistant at 3rds! Point is, my boat is capable of finishing 1st, with a better skipper! The 2 C250's in the club usually don't race in our class but they have occasionally. It's been my experience, (with my 250), that we were not competitive against a C25 with a 150 headsail in most wind. The 110 on the 250 just didn't hack it unless the C25's were overpowered. I know that's why Catalina moved the shrouds inboard on the new WB models to accomodate a 135.
As to which boat? Easy. If you're on the trailer the C250 is perfect. I would say only a slight compromise if you have a slip. It's really subjective as to the sailing characteristics. The 250 is much lighter on the tiller and I miss that. If you're into performance and a more solid feeling boat, especially in the puffs (and have a slip) I think the C25 is the way to go.

Andy Anderson
45 North, TRWK #5608
MHYC, McCall Idaho elv.5000' Lat. 45N

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