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New motor recommendations??

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ksaubier
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2004 : 15:14:05

Ok, to keep a long story short, I've been trying to find a new (or newer) 9.9 2-stroke outboard, but it seems to be nearly impossible to get a 25" shaft 2-stroke. Johnson dealer had a 20" and was gonna extend the shaft for me to 25", but called back a few weeks later when the extension kit came in to let me know it wouldn't work... would only get me from 15" to 20" because of the drive shaft length, etc. I had ruled out the 4-strokes (like Honda) because of the extra weight involved, because I'm trying to avoid modifying the mounting bracket to handle the extra weight. Has anyone else recently bought a new motor and shared this experience - and have some advice for me?

Thanks,

Ken

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 16:14:28

I'd look at the XL shaft Nissan... Much Lighter than the Honda/Yamaha, 4 stroke, 25" shaft... and the owner reports so far have been good.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 20:16:35

XL 25" long shaft Tohatsu 9.9 HP is only 88 lbs and costs only $1950 from onlineoutboards.com Charlie R. (Sterngucker) has one on his new C250 and it works great. It is so quiet I didn't know it was running.

No doubt, that is the motor I would get if my Honda 8 HP classic ever wore out. No doubt Tohatsu designed it specifically for our class of boats.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 20:16:39

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 21:18:57

Got to speak up for my Yamaha! Think I spent about $2,200 for a XL shaft 8hp. It has worked wonderfully all year. Yes, it does wigh a bit more, but I'm not sure if lifting 100, 105, or 110 makes much of a difference. Has exterior motor flush, electric start, on the handle controls, and runs very, very quiet. The one and only draw back is that it's a little heavier.

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 21:38:56

Whether you buy a high-thrust 8hp or a 9.9hp probably does not make a lot of difference UNLESS you are operating in an environment with major currents and swells. My extra-long shaft (27") Honda 9.9 is now in its sixth season, and it has failed me only once (when I forgot to connect up the gas line!) It cavitates only in extreme conditions (when I have seen inboars cavitate!). Yes it is heav(ier), but with the right bracket even a child of ten can raise and lower it.

Even the newer two-strokes are more polluting than four-strokes, and that IS an issue.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 22:18:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by deastburn
 Whether you buy a high-thrust 8hp or a 9.9hp probably does not make a lot of difference UNLESS you are operating in an environment with major currents and swells.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ken, I'd seriously check out the new Nissan/Tohatsu 4-strokes. Mercury is rebranding the same engines but does not appear to offer the extra-long shaft. (They've probably never seen the kind of boat that needs it.) Nissan shows an 8 hp version that, like the Honda, is the same engine as the 9.8 (just a different price-point). However, they do not list a 25" shaft for the 8, while they do for the 9.8.

I have not seen a 25" 2-stroke in a while, either. Unless you sail only on a small lake, I'd opt for the length over the lighter weight.

Good luck in your quest,

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 23:11:24

I just took a look at Yamaha's website; Yamaha being one of the few manufacturers that is still offering 2-stroke outboards in small HP sizes (not available in California, of course). They show an 8hp and a 9.9hp, but only in 15" short shaft. It looks like the 25" XLS that you want is only made in 4-stroke now. I susoect that by the end of this decade, there will be no more 2-stroke motors sold in the US at all, in any HP size, as Fed emmissions standards become ever more restrictive.

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2004 : 23:03:38

I have the Nissan (Same as Tohatsu) 9.8. I have been very happy. Lightweight (88#), easy start and the long shaft is actually a couple inches longer than 25". I bought fromn sailnet. Join the sailnet program I think its 4.00 and then you get a discount. Very happy all the way around.

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 22:41:04

try onlineoutboards.com

i have bought about 4 engines from them, i bought tohatsus in the past but i believe they carry all the latest. my expirience with them has always been helpful and they are alwyas around $100-$300 less then the big wholesale places. they are a small mom and pop shop in Louisiana. If I remember correctly when I was shopping for a 8hp tohatsu 2 stroke, they quoted me an additional $150ish for the 25". I went for the 20" the electric start optionj is also very important for me and highly recommend it. I actuallty have the Honda 4 st 9.9 now and adore it. I haven't noticed any weight issues. I guess a 4 stroke can be problematic when dimounting and storing for he winter due to it always having to stay upright.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 20:13:36

I did a new Nissan 9.9 two stroke, but understand that they (Nissan - Tohatsu) are not making two strokes anymore. I order from the marine dealer in Houma LA on the internet. Very satisfied with the motor, and the delivery.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 08:14:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 77Gypsy
 a 4 stroke can be problematic when dimounting and storing for he winter due to it always having to stay upright.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

4-Strokes don't necessarily have to be stored upright. Both Honda and Yamaha 8 & 9.9 hp models can be stored lying down on one side. I think it's the side that the tiller handle comes off of on the Yamaha, and the side opposite the tiller handle on the Honda (could be wrong about the Honda, I don't have one at hand to check). If you think about it, you can see that it would be completely impractical for a manufacturer to produce an outboard that has to be kept upright - how would an owner transport the engine in a vehicle? You certainly can't stand an outboard upright in the trunk of a car.

Edited by - on

cvwall
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 08:22:12

Check out the Bombardier web site. They took over OMC when it went belly up. I believe they still offer the 8HP Johnson Sailmaster with the XL shaft and 4 amp alternator.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 20:24:27

Hondas (all I've seen) can lie on their starboard sides, where the cowl has little feet sticking out. But I'm not sure that they recommend leaving it there indefinitely--it would seem that the oil would eventually migrate from the crankcase to the combustion chamber. If you lay it on the other side, the oil migrates to the inside of the cowl and/or the inside of your vehicle.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 08:11:56

Nissans are the same way. You can lie them on the designated side for transport, but they don't recommend storing them that way.

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 20:19:09

What happened to retractable pull starts on new electric-start engines?

Today I was ready to order an XLS Yamaha T8 or T9.9 electric-start 4-stroke for my Hunter 25, but was told that neither model comes with a pull start! I'm willing to accept the Yammy's extra weight to get the high thrust lower unit and the longer tiller handle with F-N-R lever mounted on it. But lack of a retractable rope start is almost a deal breaker to me because I know that damned electric start is going to fail someday. And historically, my Honda 5 horse only quits at low speeds-- like when docking, maneuvering in close quarters, shifting to reverse to stop quickly, etc. Forget the old-fashioned method: find the pull rope (in the cabin or lazarette or ?), remove the cowl, manually wrap the rope and pull like a madman, then re-wrap and pull, and re-wrap and.... That silly ritual just gives you something to do while you wait for the crash.

Does any company offer a 25" high-thrust 4 stroke with both elec & manual start AND with the F-N-R lever on the front? My H25 has an internal rudder, so I sit on the port side and tiller steer with my left hand and motor steer with my right. Having to stand up & reach over the engine to grab the starboard-mounted forward/reverse lever is a NO/GO!

The dealer (Brady Marine, San Antonio) is quoting $2200 for the T8, with delivery in January, and $2500 for the 9.9, with a November delivery date. Ed's Marine Superstore has the same prices, and can't guarantee an earlier delivery on either model. Anybody know a better source, or a better choice in engines?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 20:55:39

My Honda 8 has an electric starter, a pull-start handle on the front, a shift lever on the front (not on the tiller, but easily accessible from the helm position), twice the alternator output of the Yamaha, and a 4-blade, high-thrust prop. Yamaha's lack of a pull starter was the deal-breaker for me.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 21:31:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 My Honda 8 has an electric starter, a pull-start handle on the front, a shift lever on the front (not on the tiller, but easily accessible from the helm position), twice the alternator output of the Yamaha, and a 4-blade, high-thrust prop. Yamaha's lack of a pull starter was the deal-breaker for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

What makes you nervous about not having a pull starter? Most boats (fishing boats, sailboats with inboards, PWC's, inboards, outboards, inboard/outboards) don't have pull starters and cars have been without pull (crank) starters since the model T.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 21:48:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Dave,
What makes you nervous about not having a pull starter? Most boats (fishing boats, sailboats with inboards, PWC's, inboards, outboards, inboard/outboards) don't have pull starters and cars have been without pull (crank) starters since the model T.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, most cars' batteries aren't used to power various things (cabin lights and such) while the engine is off; most inboards, outboards, and PWCs have their engines running while they get from one place to another--and don't need to start them when they've arrived; and when trying to start when you've arrived just outside the jetty with a strong on-shore wind, you might want another option in case either your battery has failed or your engine draws it down trying to start. Most Model Ts and fishing boats don't face that situation. Finally, I've been on two inboard sailboats that couldn't start their engines when we returned from races (one on a stormy night) because their batteries were drained.

Besides, one engine had it and the other didn't.

BTW, Don, do you have one? Are you sorry you do?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/16/2004 22:06:49

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 13:53:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Dave,
What makes you nervous about not having a pull starter? Most boats (fishing boats, sailboats with inboards, PWC's, inboards, outboards, inboard/outboards) don't have pull starters and cars have been without pull (crank) starters since the model T.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, most cars' batteries aren't used to power various things (cabin lights and such) while the engine is off; <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is why those who rely on electric-start only motors, such as inboard powered sailboats, should have a dedicated, well maintained starting battery that is isolated from the house bank.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...most inboards, outboards, and PWCs have their engines running while they get from one place to another--and don't need to start them when they've arrived;...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't really see the relation between "when" a motor starts to "how" it is started.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...and when trying to start when you've arrived just outside the jetty with a strong on-shore wind, you might want another option in case either your battery has failed or your engine draws it down trying to start...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, having more options is preferable, but I start my motor a little bit before I actually need it and even sooner if conditions, such as a strong on-shore wind, warrant it.

And second, if the battery fails due to the engine drawing it down trying to start the motor, I doubt that my arm has as many pulls in it as the starter has revolutions, which means, if the outboard won't start within the rpm's and revolutions provided by the starter, my arm sure ain't gonna do it either!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 BTW, Don, do you have one? Are you sorry you do?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, my boat came with just a pull-start only Merc, which has not failed me yet (knock on wood), but I don't think a lack of a pull starter would be a "deal-breaker" for me.

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 13:59:23

Thanks for the info, Dave. Only problem is, there are no Honda dealers in my part of Texas. I service my Honda 5 myself, with parts ordered from California. Gotta admit, I didn't know Honda made a high-thrust 25" motor.

Question: Do the cylinders on new two cylinder engines operate independently? If for instance, one plug fouls, or the electronic module fails on one, will the other jug get you home?

I know for a fact that Hondas used to operate that way. When I was a teenager (35 years ago) I borrowed a pal's Honda 350 motorcycle, and went cruising "the strip", trying to impress the girls. Unbeknownst to me, one plug was fouled, but I was perfectly happy with the way the bike was running. I was accelerating away from a stoplight, with my right hand on the throttle and my left cocked jauntily on my hip, when the second plug cleared itself. The second cylinder kicked in suddenly and I went ass-over-teakettle onto the pavement! Only my pride was hurt, but I didn't meet any chicks that night because I was too humiliated to stick around.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 14:20:30

Why is everyone so concerned about their engine not starting? If you can't sail into your slip you need to practice until you can. I am delighted when I can motor into my slip and not bothered at all when I need to sail in. I suppose there are some marinas that would make it more difficult than others.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 15:46:41

To Frank: With all due respect to lake sailors, you don't deal with tidal currents and inlets. Besides, neither you nor Dennis Conner can sail into my slip, and you'll be thrown out of the club for trying (after being allowed to repair the boats you banged up in the attempt). If the tide is out, it's tough enough to get into it under power.

To Don: Sounds like the Yamaha is for you. I have one battery--if I start doing more cruising, I'll add one. My point about WHEN you start the engine is that if you need it to go somewhere and can't start it, you stay where you are. If you're approaching an inlet and need to start the engine but can't, you have a slightly different problem. I haven't used the pull starter yet--I guess it was a waste. But I like having it there.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 16:04:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 To Don: Sounds like the Yamaha is for you...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not advocating the Yamaha, just wondering why it was such a deal breaker for you.

As of right now, my main criteria for an outboard is lightweight, indestructible, simple, and relatively inexpensive, which for me means two-stroke.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 16:34:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Why is everyone so concerned about their engine not starting? If you can't sail into your slip you need to practice until you can...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,

My marina contract, and those of most marinas around here, specifically state that sailboats cannot manuever under sail within the marina and quite honestly, I don't want people "practicing" this around my boat.

Looking at your marina pictures, it appears as if you have a ton of manuevering room in both the approach to your marina and within the marina itself. Additionally, it looks like you don't share dockspace with another boat and your floating docks are made of forgiving wood.

At my marina, we share our slips and there is barely a boatlength of room when backing up before hitting your neighbor to the rear. And if you misjudge your speed a little, my concrete and steel pile dock doesn't quite have the give of a wooden floating dock.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 17:04:04

What is the propellor size on the Honda 9 hi-thrust outboard. The Yamaha 8 and 9,9 both have 11 and 1/4 dia. but I have not seen a Honda HT. BTW I have used a Yamaha 8 HT with power trim and tilt and the ladies like this feature. Dave

Edited by - on

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