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New motor recommendations??

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 19:48:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 What is the propellor size on the Honda 9 hi-thrust outboard?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
10" by 6.5" pitch, with four blades. I don't know the degree to which the number of blades offsets the diameter, but I can say that the new Honda 8 has much more stopping and backing power than the "classic", having replaced the latter with the former. I assume the Yamaha is at least as good, except for the lack of a pull starter and half the alternator output.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/18/2004 17:53:06

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2004 : 19:20:21

Yeah, but what about my question-- will one cylinder operate independently of the other on modern two cylinder four strokers?

I concur with Dave B. & Don. Ain't no way to sail into my slip safely. I'm at a very busy Army recreation area where they rent powerboats, pontoon boats, canoes & pedalboats to anyone with a military ID card. My boat is on an end slip near the launch ramp, so there is a tremendous amount of boating traffic, and most operators have no understanding of the rules of the road. I stopped by the boat this afternoon for an hour, and while there had my outboard struck by two "aqua-trikes" or whatever you call those plastic three wheeled pedal craft. Six neophytes rented three of the trikes and started playing bumpercars with each other. All three trikes were jammed together when they struck my outboard and then glanced off the motors on two adjacent boats. No telling how many other times that type thing has occurred.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2004 : 20:33:21

Re storing/transporting outboards: I made a bracket for my Yamaha 8...it looks like this.../---- (make the two sides longer at the bottom and make the sides flush with the top). I clamp the motor on the the horizontal bar (it's all 4 X 4s) and rotate the head as if it were making a hard turn to starboard. The sides are about 15" long, and I tilt the motor as if I was tilting it out of the water. So it travels at about a 30 degree angle with the head up and the bracket is at such an angle that the motor will not move fore and aft. I travel and store it this way. Hope this makes sense.

Bert

Edited by - on

Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2004 : 21:07:06

Alright Dave, you talked me into it. I ordered a 2005 Honda 9.9 XLS electric start today. I checked online and found a dealer only 80 miles away in Marble Falls, TX. Final price--tax title & transfer--is $2560.00, and it should be delivered within two weeks. Delivered to the dealer, Tropical Marine, that is. I'll have to buzz up there and pick it up.

I know what you're going to say: why a 9.9 instead of an 8? 9.9 is overkill on a 25 footer. Well, the 9.9 was only $175 more than the 8, and I'm always looking around for that mythical "next boat" (two foot-itis and all that) that might need the extra oomph.

Oh, and I got my question answered by the dealer. Yes, the two cylinders operate independently. If one plug fouls or cracks, I'll still have a five horse single to come home on. That fact and the retractable back-up starter rope were all the incentive I needed to buy it. Thanks for your help, Dave.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2004 : 22:18:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 Alright Dave, you talked me into it...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Uhhhh... Who's Dave?? And where's my disclaimer paragraph... I know it's around here somewhere... BTW, somebody here reported something about the Honda 8 cam timing giving it more low-end torque than the 9.9--I think. Not that I want to confuse the issue...

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2004 : 07:12:38

Thanks Dave,
I may have to consider the Homda line more seriously in the future. Maybe they will go with the power tilt system as well and have everything. I wonder why Yamaha has reduced alternator output. Our old 9.9 Yamaha is 15 amps . BTW prop diameter or swept area is the primary determinate of acceleration at low prop RPM. Does Homda have a good through hub exhaust like Yamaha? Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 09/21/2004 17:43:06

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2004 : 23:03:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 Does Homda have a good through hub exhaust like Yamaha? Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think they're similar... Honda vents the exhaust higher on the lower unit when in reverse, keeping the exhaust away from the prop. I think Yamaha does that too--can't speak for Nissan/Tohatsu.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/21/2004 23:04:39

Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 17:45:03

Well that's just great, Dave-- THANKS A LOT!
You conned me into buying a Honda, then intimate that I bought the wrong one. I was so excited 10 minutes ago, eagerly anticipating the arrival of my new treasure. Now I hate my Honda 9.9 and I haven't even seen it yet. Why didn't you warn me that it was weak and anemic? This is all your fault, Bristle!

Why would they cam them differently? Do they figure the 9.9 is more likely to be used in high-rev situations on semi-displacement hulls?

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 20:58:37

AFAIK, They are the same engine block. Since HP = torque X rpm you can get more HP by either revving the engine higher or increasing torque at the camshaft. With the displacements and crankshafts of the engine the same, increasing torque is tough. It's far easier to increase RPM.

BTW, I think you'll have plenty of whoopie with the 9.9

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 21:49:01

Ok Guys and Gals, Horsepower and torgue are mathematicaly related and so are, for similar engines, tied to each other. Cam profiles can change, due to flow irregularities, the peak torgue slightly, but for practical purposes 1 Horsepower = 1 horsepower (ie. a 9.9 is 20% more powerfull than an 8). Torgue at RPM is really only usefull to predict acceleration peaks and bearing loads. HP at RPM really tells the whole story. HP = Torque x RPM/5252 Dave

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 09:01:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Why is everyone so concerned about their engine not starting? If you can't sail into your slip you need to practice until you can...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,

My marina contract, and those of most marinas around here, specifically state that sailboats cannot manuever under sail within the marina and quite honestly, I don't want people "practicing" this around my boat.

Looking at your marina pictures, it appears as if you have a ton of manuevering room in both the approach to your marina and within the marina itself. Additionally, it looks like you don't share dockspace with another boat and your floating docks are made of forgiving wood.

At my marina, we share our slips and there is barely a boatlength of room when backing up before hitting your neighbor to the rear. And if you misjudge your speed a little, my concrete and steel pile dock doesn't quite have the give of a wooden floating dock.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ANOTHER reason to come to Cheney for the 05 Nationals; practice sailing into a slip where the only thing you can damage is your pride! Dave, Don, sometimes I really suffer from my ignorance of sailing at other venues. I do not travel much. What I do learn about other's sailing locations makes me all the more excited for people to come to Wichita where circumstances and hard work have created a sailboat heaven, I do not think anyone's boat is in a better place. I think 95% of people have a better place to sail to, but no one has a better place to sail from.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 09/23/2004 09:08:55

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 22:41:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 Well that's just great, Dave-- THANKS A LOT!
You conned me into buying a Honda, then intimate that I bought the wrong one. I was so excited 10 minutes ago, eagerly anticipating the arrival of my new treasure. Now I hate my Honda 9.9 and I haven't even seen it yet. Why didn't you warn me that it was weak and anemic? This is all your fault, Bristle!

Why would they cam them differently? Do they figure the 9.9 is more likely to be used in high-rev situations on semi-displacement hulls?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hey Randall--I hope you just forgot to include a smiley-face somewhere in there...

If not, sleep comfortably knowing that either engine is more than you need, by almost double. (Some authorities equate an 8-hp high-thrust 4-stroke with a 15-hp standard 2-stroke for pushing/pulling power.) I gun mine maybe a little over half throttle now and then to stop the boat and start backing into the slip. I have never come close to full throttle--I don't like that kind of violence! I took that cam discussion with a grain of salt in the first place--I bought the 8 because I knew it was more than enough (and is essentially the same engine).

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2004 : 08:38:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think 95% of people have a better place to sail to, but no one has a better place to sail from.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm, Frank. We have five restaurants, two hardware stores with stainless fittings, a grocery store, an old-time pharmacy with a lunch counter, several antique stores, a library, a pool, a laundromat, and an ice cream parlor all within walking distance; West Marine and Boat US stores a 15 minute drive away; a respected sailmaker who repaired my jib bag for free running my marina; fresh seafood everywhere; 20 ton travellift and yard services; 30 minutes to Colonial Williamsburg; one hour to Richmond or Hampton Roads; no Texas-style triple digit summer days --- your marina is beautiful, but I think I'll stay in Urbanna!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 09/24/2004 09:01:21

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2004 : 09:11:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...I think 95% of people have a better place to sail to, but no one has a better place to sail from.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My marina is part of the Lake Erie Metropark. The park, a 1,607-acre recreational facility, features a panoramic view of Lake Erie along its three-mile shoreline. This park is a top bird-watching site, and an abundance of wildlife and waterfowl inhabit the meadows, marsh and lagoons. Park features include a wave action swimming pool, an 18-hole regulation golf course, a museum and nature center, hiking and biking trails, boat launches and a marina. The children's play area features a child-size town.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2004 : 13:53:00

I don't think I made my point very well, I envy nearly all of you, that is what I meant by "places to sail to". Brooke and Don, you sail out of "a place to sail to". I am just grateful for what I have in the middle of a Kansas prairie.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2004 : 00:23:49

I'm not even going to go into the wonders of Mystic, Connecticut, as either a departure point or a destination... All you need is a map, but that just begins to tell the story. That's where I (and Passage) expect to be living by next sailing season. Yes, we have four seasons, and I don't want it any other way.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2004 : 12:34:45

I think it's fantastic when folks express such great pride in their home ports. Here's a plug for mine...

My marina ([url="http://www.larsonsmarina.com/"]Al Larson Marina[/url]) is located in the heart of the third largest container shipping port in the world. There are often very large vessels around without a lot a patience for recreational boaters, who can crush you like a bug if you are not careful to stay out of their way. There is lots of heavy industry around, including a couple petroleum refineries, a huge trash incinerator and several other chemical factories (the one with the 150' high, open pile of raw sulfur is pretty special). We have legendary heavy highway traffic. In a region famous for bad air pollution, the port area often has the region's worst pollution due to thousands of diesel trucks constantly stuck in traffic or waiting to transport all the shipping containers out of the area. There are a couple sleazy strip joints, a federal penitentiary and a large homeless encampment nearby. Earthquakes, race riots and raging brush fires can also occasionally be observed.

...and it is the closest mainland marina to this place...

Edited by - RichardG on 09/26/2004 12:42:55

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 20:11:01

The smiley face was implicit, Dave. I don't know how to do all that fancy computer shtuff-- guess I'm icon-oclastic, or iconospastic or sumpin'.

I called the dealer the day after you raised the cam issue. He did some researching and said that he didn't think there was a camming difference on the high-thrusts. He read me the specs, which I didn't jot down, but they were something like: 7.4 foot/pounds of torque at 4500 rpms for the 8, and 7.6 at 6500 for the 9.9. He wasn't sure, but he believed you're thinking about the "Classic" model, which is still in production.

Regardless, the new mill is due in any day now. I've already installed the big, monster Garelick offshore motor mount (91041 model?), and have put three new Group 27 batteries under the port settee, two house and one starter.

I've put 7k into this boat in the last six months, and haven't even untied it from the docks yet. Hope I don't find out that I hate her once I do! I've never sailed on a Hunter 25 before, I'm just hoping she moves as nicely as my Cat 25 did.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 22:30:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 I've never sailed on a Hunter 25 before, I'm just hoping she moves as nicely as my Cat 25 did.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The "Smilies" to the left of the Reply box are very valuable features--they can represent the invisible expression on your face as you create your post. Just click on one

and it the face will appear where the cursor is sitting (when you see the results of the post).

The interesting (but minor) point in your dealer's statistics is that the peak torque for the 8 is at a considerably lower RPM than for the 9.9, which is a sure sign of a different cam that's timed more for low-end punch. But either version is overkill.

As for the the Hunter compared to the Cat...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/29/2004 22:36:27

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