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Is a C25 the Right Boat for Me?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 12:37:49

Wolf: That $20/trip hoist could be well worth it in preserving your trailer (brakes, bearings, springs, lights, etc.) even if it's galvanized. My slip costs in Passage's new home next year will work out to around $75/week. I gather that Left Coast costs are lower... How much is that per sail? That's yet to be seen. (New venue, new life.) But a boat doesn't absolutely have to be sailing to be a boat--it just has to be in the water.

BTW, the mast is pretty heavy... Guys have managed it (with help, especially keeping the stay toggles clear as it goes up. I think you'd be best off with a standard rig rather than a tall--for rigging ease, sailing forgiveness, and comfort in the cockpit. (The TR boom is a foot lower.) Lake racers like those extra sq. ft. of sail, but ocean sailors shouldn't need them often, and more likely will be sailing reefed most of the time with a TR.

Happy hunting,

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/30/2004 16:05:18

Sea Wolf
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:12:58

Any chance anybody's going to be launching a C25 off the Morro Bay ramp anytime soon? Seeing it get rigged and launched there would be extremely interesting. Mostly I've only seen small day boats going in there.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:15:26

Wolf, with practice, a husband and wife can launch, rig and sail away in a C22 in about 1/2 hour. It takes about 1/2 day to launch, rig and sail away in a C25. You will enjoy a C25 more if you keep it in a slip, rigged and ready to sail. You will enjoy a C22 or similar boat more if you intend to keep it on a trailer.

If the sea and weather conditions are too rough for a C22, they will also be too rough for a C25. (The C25 is more seaworthy than the C22, but the difference isn't all that great, and neither should be out in bad conditions.)

Edited by - on

Sea Wolf
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:21:26

Yeah, I'm starting to get that feeling--that the C25 is a boat maybe best kept in the water ready to go, with the advantage of being able to be taken on the road occasionally.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:32:56

Exactly. I normally keep my C25 in the water, but occasionally trailer it, and it isn't too big a chore if you're going to cruise for a week or two. With my old C22, I thought nothing of trailering it to a local lake for the day, and taking it home at the end of the day.

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Sea Wolf
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:32:57

I just double checked. Slips in Morro Bay are $250/mo. That's a lot more than I'd run up in hoist fees. But moorings are $120...probably not that much more than hoist fees since I plan to be out often. On the other hand at Port San Luis, you've got to put in your own mooring equipment estimated to be about $1000-$1400 and then a quarterly fee of $73 keeps you in--long term that may be a good way to go if I want a C25. Or for $50/mo I can leave it on the trailer at the boat yard (rigged? I'm guessing). That seems to be what I'm looking at. Hmmm. Somewhat different than the it's in the back yard for free situation I initially had in mind. I haven't checked trailer yards yet, I doubt they're much less than $50/mo and then there's the mast to raise every time. Every answer brings up 4 more questions. What maintenance should I anticipate associated with keeping it in salt water?

Edited by - Sea Wolf on 08/30/2004 14:39:45

RichardG
Admiral

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 14:03:00

I think there's a guy (username -- tmhansen), who is somewhat active on this forum, who trailor-sails his C25 from his home in San Luis Obispo. You may want to email him to get some really good local wisdom.

By the way, we went camping last Fall at the state park at Montana del Oro -- really beautiful spot! I also did a little surf fishing down the beach from Morro Rock -- did ok.

Good luck.

Edited by - RichardG on 08/30/2004 14:24:26

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 15:02:35

A couple of points. First the porta-potty under the V-berth thing. I always put it out in the cockpit at night when I had them. If you are in the slip you use the facilities, if you are at anchor you use the potty in the cockpit. It is a fine solution. Boats with heads under the V-berth often have extra seating in the salon because people can sit on the V-berth and be in a converation with the people on the settees. Try that on a boat with an athwartship head between the V-berth and the salon.
Next as to keeping a boat in a slip. I am blessed with cheap dues, my club anual membership is around 350, my slip is around 550 and my yard space is 50, (Moorings are 50). The thing I try to explain to stink boaters is that sailboats ang sailors are a comunity. Stink boaters haul to the ramp, launch, run around with who ever they brought, and haul out and go home. We go to our docks where we see friends. It is easy to spend a lovely day on the docks with friends, piddling on your boat and never even get on the water till evening. Sailing is a comunity experience and people who do not have slips where they get to know other sailors are missing a huge part of the experience and therefore a huge return on their investment. Just ask fleet 7. Plus, a boat at a slip is always being watched over by someone.
If you are going to dry sail then only consider a yard where you can leave the mast up, and where hopefully there is a guest dock for dry sailors. Our club maintains six slips with water and power for dry sailors so they can be comfortable while they are in the water.
Sailing is not cheap. We here on this board are all sailing very frugally because of our old inexpensive boats. If the costs of maintaining a Catalina 25 seem daunting to you now you will be very dissapointed after you get the boat and discover the other money you are spending to go sailing. I bet most people spend $50 at the grocery store before they go to the lake. I live 30 miles from my boat and drive to the lake at least twice a week, 8 galons of gas at $1.75/per times the number of weeks in my sailing season = over $400 on gas.
Golf is much cheaper. Make your decisions, spend the money and get your money's worth by using the boat a lot.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 16:03:39

OK Sea Wolf, if you are going to get a C25 and keep it slipped, then things change. I, too, whole heartedly endorse the opinion that the C25 should be kept slipped, if you intend to use the boat more than a few times per year. I use mine nearly every day and can get to the dock and be out sailing in 10 minutes. Rigging and launching takes at least 1/2 a day. Its not worth it unless you are going for at least a 3 day weekend. I also agree that hanging out at the dock with my friends is a valued part of the whole experience!

Your marina sounds a lot like ours. Marina Village costs $250/month, plus $13 for utilities and $25 for bottom cleaning. They clean the bottoms every month in summer and every 6 weeks in winter. Bottom painting costs about $1000 every 3 years. Motor mainteneance will be more but your outboard can be flushed with fresh water and stored out of the water on a C25 so its not too bad. Figure $500 every few years to have the outboard serviced (see my other thread on this). Figure on $2000 every 10 years for sails (or about $200/year). Insurance is about $200/year.

Things break, and its fun to improve your boat. Figure about $200/month for this. All in all, I would guess I spend about $500 per month on the joy of boat ownership. Even a very economical 25 year old C25. I use the boat more than anyone I know, even so that comes to $15 every time I sail it, not counting lunch, beer, ice, and lost fishing gear. By the way, my old 40 foot power boat I figured cost $2000 / month and cost nearly $500 per use.

Note that I spend about $6000 per year to own the C25 boat, which is what I paid for it. I spent about $2000 as soon as I bought the boat to get it into good condition.

If you are going to be slipped you should forget the swing keel (IMHO). If you want to trailer a few times per year, get a wing. A fin keel can still be trailered but you usually need some kind of hoist to launch and load (it can be done with a special trailer and a long tounge extension. I guess I'd trailer a fin a few times a lifetime (like if I was moving).

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 18:09:13

Now that I'm a deckhand, I feel it is my responsibility to stay out of the way and ask more dumb questions from a safe distance.
I'm reading conflicting opinions on how long it takes to get under way from the trailer...that is, how long does it take the average person (lets say husband and reasonably well intentioned wife and one small dog that doesn't know the meaning of shaddup) to get the trailer down the ramp, and get rigged up and ready to starting bouncing off boats and rocks?
I've heard one hour to half a day. What's the best expectation for a couple of knuckleheads in their first year with a C25?

Edited by - stampeder on 08/30/2004 18:20:53

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 19:16:55

Wolf,

I started my search about a year ago. My first thought was trailerable, so I could launch from most any ramp or marina in my area (there are 3 within 7 miles, and about 15 within 20 miles).

I started looking at my driveway and found that I could not back the boat into it easily so my quest was for dry storage. Dry Storage was more that a slip (Dry would run me about $300 and a slip was $145), rigging for a day was also a concern. I ended up with a 250 Wing Keel that sits in the water. She sits 7 miles from my house and gets a minimum of 3 visits a week, we try and go out all three days but both of us are happy with 1 day a week.

For me moorage is a great option. I know that I sail more with her in the water 24x7 than I would if she sat on a trailer.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 20:23:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I bet most people spend $50 at the grocery store before they go to the lake<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That must be the real high-end PB&J!

Edited by - RichardG on 08/31/2004 12:31:59

LeighMarie
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 20:25:11

Stampeder, you will always get a fair amount of conflicting, yet good, advice on this forum. There are also a fair amount of writers who aggrandize a lot and make large issues out of what I believe to be small things. We have a swing keel, 1985 C25 and trailer it a few times a year. I suppose there is more maintenance on a swing than a fin or wing, but that maintenance is just checking everything when it's out of the water. That maintenance takes the form of just a few well-spent minutes a year - not days on end. (Obviously you can see my consternation here - it's for another topic.) I change the cable also, but that only takes a short period of time and it's only $50 or so. When it's in the water I never have to raise or lower it unless we're in an area we shouldn't be, and then it's just a matter of a few cranks.

Anyway, this is the third year with our boat, and I always time it when my wife and I arrive to launch the boat to when it's in the water and it averages about 2 hours, maybe a bit less when we're taking it out. Now we keep busy in those 2 hours (although I usually squeak in a donut or two), but that's pretty much it. We use an A-frame that I built and we each pretty much know what we have to do next and it goes quickly. And that includes putting the sails on and everything. It's nice to be able to do it with 2 people and it's very possible to take it out, pull it somewhere and then put it back in all in one day.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 21:32:11

"What's the best expectation for a couple of knuckleheads in their first year with a C25?"

I think two experienced people hustling along can splash in half an hour. My buddy and I ususally launch mine in 45 minutes at a fairly relaxed pace. First couple times out with the C25 were in the hour to hour and a half range... we were being extra careful.

We divide duties into a 'ground man' and 'deck man' (P.C. term 'person') so we can increase our effeciency. We team up for the mast raising and lifting the motor onto the mount, then split tasks again. Little things cut time radically... while one is securing the turnbuckles, the other is hanging fenders, getting mooring lines ready (& etc). Between his Mac, my Venture 23 and the C25, my buddy and I done a lot of launches together.

It's really important to have everything 'right' so you don't have hang-ups at the ramp. Open body turnbuckles, having threads that turn easily and aren't jammed up, appropriate pins and cotter keys handy, each person has the right tools in pocket.

Practice rigging a few times in a nice quiet parking lot, driveway etc. In those settings, there's lots less pressure than at the zoo on the launch ramp.
Wherever you are... WATCH FOR OVERHEAD POWERLINES (and other obstacles)!

Having a launch and retrieval checklist is a HUGE help when you're getting started... and even for experienced people it's so easy to forget something.

Swing keel in salt water issue. (I have one) Provided your keel is epoxy-encapsulated, IMHO it's a full day's maintenance a year on the system.

The main time-consumer is the need to get the keel lowered out of the keel recess so you can clean and renew the bottom paint up there. If you're doing it on the trailer, it takes some time, jacks, experience and effort. Up on a hoist or regular boat stands in a yard, not as big a deal.

In comparison to the keel recess maintenance, changing the cable, checking turning ball etc. is pretty trivial.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 21:50:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">spend $50 at the grocery store before they go to the lake<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That must be the real high-end PB&J!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Accurate quote please "I bet most people spend $50 at the grocery store before they go to the lake."
I spend under $5. I buy no ice because of my refrigerator on the boat, I buy powdered Power Aide and mix my own, and take bread PB&J and Slim Fast.

As for painting in the keel recess, I'm not sure it is needed in most water. Ours is too dark for anything to grow there.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 08/30/2004 21:55:24

MattL
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 09:37:59

I have had the boat rigged and ready to launch by myself in 1 hour. That's my record with no distractions. Depending on how hot it is - it's a bitch to work like that in 100+ degrees- and how many water breaks that demands, I have taken 2 or three to get set. This is for probably 2 or three trips during the summer. I'm sure with practice I could get the time down.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 10:36:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 As for painting in the keel recess, I'm not sure it is needed in most water. Ours is too dark for anything to grow there.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe--in a fresh water lake. Frank, I'm guessing the zebra mussels haven't made it to your neck of the woods...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 11:27:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 As for painting in the keel recess, I'm not sure it is needed in most water. Ours is too dark for anything to grow there.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe--in a fresh water lake. Frank, I'm guessing the zebra mussels haven't made it to your neck of the woods...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You make a good point, some growth is not flora.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 11:52:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm reading conflicting opinions on how long it takes to get under way from the trailer...that is, how long does it take the average person (lets say husband and reasonably well intentioned wife and one small dog that doesn't know the meaning of shaddup) to get the trailer down the ramp, and get rigged up and ready to starting bouncing off boats and rocks?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There are many variables that affect the amount of time it takes. A fin keel might take longer than a wing or swing keel, because it sits higher on the trailer, and that alone makes everything more difficult. Therefore, you might have to get out a ladder to climb aboard, instead of just climbing the swim ladder or the trailer winch arm.

Some people carry the motor mounted on the boat, and others mount it before they launch. Most people remove the motor when they store the boat for the winter. It takes time and energy to mount the motor and hook up the gas and electric, especially if the boat is a fin keel, and you have to hoist a 75-110 lb. motor over your head while teetering on a ladder.

The tall rig mast generally takes more time to raise than the standard rig mast. Two good men can muscle up the standard rig mast, but the tall rig mast generally requires three (and four really isn't too many), unless you use an A-frame and mast-up, or similar devices. It takes more time and energy to get out, set up and put away such devices. Each time you raise the mast, you should tune the rig at least a little, unless you just aren't particular about rig tuning, and that adds a few minutes. Just bending on the mainsail and jib, inserting the battens, running the reefing and other lines, and loosely furling the main on the boom takes one person 10-15 minutes.

When you are preparing the boat to tow it home, you can't just take the mast down and go. You have to remove and bag the sails, secure the shrouds, and tie down the mast and boom.

Some of us are strong and in good physical condition, and others are old, overweight and unable to climb around the boat and do the physical labor without taking rest breaks.

Much depends on the type of boat, the ability of the individuals, and whether you are willing to skip or minimize any steps in the process.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:35:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Accurate quote please<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry for the unintentional omission -- post is revised.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:42:42

Thank you, that reassures me. I read in an earlier thread that I should expect half a day. I've looked at some designs for mast-up gear, and will probably put more energy into that than the potti issue. I used to windsurf with a one armed guy and he was always rigged up and in the water faster than me...so I'll add an hour to your estimates and try to stay focused.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 13:16:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Accurate quote please<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry for the unintentional omission -- post is revised.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It makes it hard for me to play the pity card if it looks like I spend money to go to the lake.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 14:15:22

I'll stand behind my statement. Arrive at the launch ramp, rig, wait in line, launch, load crew, park truck, get on board, sail away, 4 hours. Although with practice and organization (I have been blessed with neither) I guess you can get it down to 2.

In a slip, arrive, park, throw the cooler down below, fire up the motor, take sail cover off, attach autopilot, untie lines, back out of slip, get mainsail up, shut down motor - 15 minutes.

Of course if I get started talking with my dock friends it can easily take 2 hours just to get from the marina gate to my boat (I'm at the end of the dock!!)

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 15:58:55

Another consideration for learning to sail is to check the local sailing clubs for racing programs, join a club and get on the "crew looking for a boat" list. Racing will teach you a lot in a short time because the courses are set up to make the boats go through all the different points of sail.

Some people (not any of us Cat 25 sailors

) get into sailing, but they never fly a spinnaker, or they sail downwind and motor upwind, or vice versa. Not so with racing, you do it all (except maybe the spinnaker part if you get on a non-flying headsail boat).

Check it out. You meet a lot of great people too!

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 18:02:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">join a club and get on the "crew looking for a boat" list.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hoping to get onboard experience with the local racers, I sent a "crew looking for a boat" email to the local sailing club last month. I got "club doesn't need more crew but we could use your boat" in reply.

Steve

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