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roller furler advice pointing vs convinience

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/12/2004 : 22:44:02

I can't decide which is more important for me. the ability to point better by getting rid of the furler or the convinience of having one.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:59:46

Steve,

My Buddy Paul and I often discuss this question.

Paul on Sparky has a traditional set-up, with three or four different cuts of jibs that he can change depending on weather, wind, etc.

My Hey Jude is set up with a CDI FF4 and a 150.

Nearly identical boats otherwise.

Paul is faster and can point higher. I can usually keep up (now that I had a foam luff installed and can furl with some shape).

But, it sure is nice to be able to roll it up and be done. While Paul has to haul-down and tie it off before he can start into the marina.

Roller furling is easy to rig (tie on the sheets), easy to deploy, and easy to furl.

So, if you plan to race seriously or usually have a crew, standard jib is the way to go. If you don't care about racing, want convenience and single-hand a lot, you can't beat roller furling.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 07:06:50

Yes, I agree with Jim, The CDI FF-4 with ball bearing is what we have. The foam luff is a critical part of this mix. Dave

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 08:24:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
My Hey Jude is set up with a CDI FF4 and a 150.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The very first time I used a furler, I was sold; I will never want to deal with a hank on sail again (I don't race). The only downside to a furler, other than the pure sailing performance issues, is that the extra weight can add a little extra difficulity to the mast raising process.

I had a 150 on my old boat, but rarely used it, as it was overpowered in all but the very lightest breeze. My new boat is a tall rig, and even with a 135 it's a handful in breeze over about 10 mph. I probably won't even buy a 150 for this boat, unless I come across a used one in decent condition that's being offered real cheap.

Edited by - lcharlot on 09/13/2004 08:30:38

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 12:37:28

I bought the CDI FF4 and installed it at the beginning of the season. I've enjoyed the convenience of being able to change jib size without having to go on the foredeck to do it. Makes a big difference in safety too, when you are out in heavy seas.

What is the foam luff you guys are talking about? What does it do for you?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 13:20:58

Larry,

I am older and wiser (I hope) because if I had it to do over, a 135 is plenty.

With the 150 fully deployed, even with a double reef in the main, I am often overpowered in the pm on SF Bay. The heeling, weather helm causes me to slow down.

I would like to keep the 150 deployed for shape and drive. What is your experience sailing with just the jib? I do see a lot of boats doing that.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

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At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 13:38:14

As previously stated, once I used a furler I was sold. Since I do not race, the furler was a no brainer. Also, when the wind is really blowing, it is very easy to partially roll up the genoa to depower a bit.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 15:14:18

Just because you have a furler doesn't mean you can't change headsails. Although I don't have another headsail, with my Harken furler it's a rather simple procedure to change headsails and, in fact, may be easier to change than a hanked on sail.

As far as sailing with a jib alone, I do this often with a 135 in higher winds and find the boat sails quite well with only minimal loss of speed. The boat points almost as high as with a main and I have slight weather helm when close or beam reaching, but when closed hauled I experience a neutral to neutral/lee helm. Without the main, the degree of heeling is generally reduced to a more comfortable angle. Generally, I have no problems tacking when using a headsail only and, of the times I had difficulty, the conditions were such that I would have had difficulty even the with main raised.

Edited by - dlucier on 09/13/2004 15:23:55

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 15:20:07

A roller furler would cost me more than the boat did. I can live with being traditional. It just takes a bit more attention to planning.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 16:28:36

I can point just as high with my roller furling 135. What I can't do is sail worth a darn with it partly rolled up. I use it as roller FURLING not roller reefing. When its blowing I send up my 110. If its very light, I use my 155. Since I have the dual headstays I can see the best of both worlds. The newer roller systems also allow you to change sails without needing 2 headstays. Changing sails takes longer than hoisting a hanked on sail.

If I sailed once a week on Saturdays only (with plenty of time) I'd be happy with hank on sails. Since I go single-handed after work most days - time is at a premium and its dark when I get back. Love the roller. But it only saves you about 10 minutes compared to the roller sail.

Sometimes I give up trying to tack out the channel and opt for the motor (usually because of light air and a 3 knot tidal current opposing). In this case, sheet the main in, roll the genny, pull the Honda cord and you're off. Its a lot easier than dropping the jib and tieing it along side (single handed). Out in the ocean - motor off, genny unrolled in 10 seconds. Or if its a short distance plus light air I've been known to motor with the main sheeted in and the hanked-on job backed.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 17:02:23

A foam luff on a roller jub is a pad that takes the extra material out of the middle of the sail as it is rolled up and thus slows down the tendency of a rolled sail to be too full. Its only a partial solution but generally works well to reduce the sail twenty to twentyfive percent. If you use one you will realize that like many things its pretty good not perfect. Dave

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 17:06:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...The newer roller systems also allow you to change sails without needing 2 headstays...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure of the vintage of my Harken furler, but it will allow me to change headsails whenever I want. It even has dual luff grooves similar to the tuff luff systems used by racers for quicker hoists and douses.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 21:06:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...The newer roller systems also allow you to change sails without needing 2 headstays...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure of the vintage of my Harken furler, but it will allow me to change headsails whenever I want. It even has dual luff grooves similar to the tuff luff systems used by racers for quicker hoists and douses.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And for racing the drum comes off and it becomes a premier Tuff Luff systems. A crew can throw headsail changes up before they have time to get grumpy.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 23:45:09

I don't understand the topic on this one. I have a furling 150. The only time I can't get the shape right is when it is partialy rolled. I can change my head sail faster than a hanked on any day of the week. Slack the outhaul, pull down on the sail and it slides off of the foil. Slide the head of the new sail into the foil guide and haul. Thats about it unless you want to include snaping on the sheet . Pointing ? why would it affect the pointing . The roller furler with foil has no air gap between the forestay. Sure looks a lot cleaner. Done for the day just let off the cleat on the furling line and slak the sheets as you furl. Done

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matsche
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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 09:18:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Douglas
 I can change my head sail faster than a hanked on any day of the week.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even if single-handing?

I've never used a tuff-luff type system, but just from looking at them, I would think that someone would have to manually guide the luff while someone else does the hoisting. But, if it's easy for single-handers, I might want to look at one of these units. Do you get any additional wear and tear on the luff tape from changing a lot? Would it be practical to simply remove your head sail at the end of the day with one of these units?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 11:01:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Pointing ? why would it affect the pointing … The only time I can't get the shape right is when it is partialy rolled.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> For racers, that is unacceptable. They want maximum performance all the time, and if it doesn’t perform at its best when the sail is partially furled, it isn’t good enough, and they would rather change sails.

From what I’ve seen, the headstay tension on most roller furlers is much less than I would want on a serious racer for maximum pointing ability. I don’t know why they are usually adjusted that way, because my experience with roller furling is limited, and I don’t understand their limitations in that regard. I suspect they are adjusted to one headstay tension that provides the best all-around performance on all points of sail and in all wind strengths, but that means they have too much headstay tension for optimal performance downwind and in light air, and too little tension for optimal performance to windward and in strong winds. A boat with headstay sag can’t point well. Apparently, some people with roller furlers use backstay adjusters to adjust headstay tension and to help flatten the mainsail, but, by far, most boats that I’ve seen with roller furlers don’t use backstay adjusters. I don’t know why most roller furlers don’t use backstay adjusters. Maybe someone has that answer. Backstay adjusters improve a boat’s performance to windward, as well as off the wind.

Roller furlers provide perfectly acceptable performance for most cruisers, but, for racers, the ability to point ½ or 1 degree higher is a big deal. It means you will have to sail a shorter distance to sail around the course. It also means that it will be more difficult for your opponents to luff you up and force you to tack off. In exchange for the considerable convenience of a roller furler, most cruisers are happy to give up ½ or 1 degree of pointing ability (as will I be, when I finally get that bigger boat I've been dreaming about).

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 13:15:09

Another advantage to the Schaffer system with 2 headstays: The genoa has a forestay wire sewn in (this is the 2nd stay). This is hoisted with the jib halyard. I can tension it or slack it as much as I want. I have those special 3/16 kevlar halyards because I often crank a lot of tension into this to get it flat for pointing.

When this is winched tight, the regular forestay gets quite loose. I use the backstay adjuster to fine tune the tension.

I never roll for reefing. I roll it up, drop it to the deck, tie it off, and go to hanked on sails.

Indiscipline certainly outpoints the TR Wings in Fleet 7 in moderate to heavy air. Due to this system or the fixed keel, I don't know. Probably a combination of everything.

I think I can point slightly higher in strong winds with the hanked on 110. But then you can sheet this in a lot tighter than a 135 because it won't hit the spreaders and I can keep the boat flatter in strong winds with the 110.

I am not capable of sensing the ability to point 1/2 to 1 degree more or less.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 14:43:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by matsche
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Douglas
 I can change my head sail faster than a hanked on any day of the week.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even if single-handing?

I've never used a tuff-luff type system, but just from looking at them, I would think that someone would have to manually guide the luff while someone else does the hoisting. But, if it's easy for single-handers, I might want to look at one of these units. Do you get any additional wear and tear on the luff tape from changing a lot? Would it be practical to simply remove your head sail at the end of the day with one of these units?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually; you need a crew or a well rehearsed routine. When a halyard is let go on a headsail luff foil system the sail drops like a rock and falls into the water because there are no hanks to hold it on the forestay. I used cheap hamock net between my toe rail and my lifelines on my Merit so the sail could not get away.
There are slick devises called pre-feeders that do a remarkable job of leading the sail up into the foil luff track. That means that once a sail is a foot or so up the track you can pretty much just hoist it without any assistance.

JB your foil-less system is odd but obviously has it's merits. I like the idea of dropping the furler like an asymetric in a sock and hoisting up different sails for racing. Since your boat has always been raced it sounds like that was the PO's plan.

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