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A few Basic C-25 Questions

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Aldo
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/28/2004 : 22:55:40

We have had our 1980, C-22 since it was new, and now started looking at C-25s. We plan on keeping our C-22 and letting our sons us it. This past weekend we looked at 3 C-25s. 2 were swing keel, and one was a fixed keel. I have a few basic questions. I originally posted these questions on the CatalinaOwners.com Forum, but got 2 quick replies to post my questions here.

1. Isn't there a lock to the swing keel? Does it rock around, or when it is in the down position, does it wedge into the trunk and this wedging action keeps it from rocking from side to side? I believe that the keel weighs 1500 pounds, compared to the C-22's 550 pounds. When the keel is up, does it rock and bang? How hard is it to winch up the keel on the C-25? Are there any problems with the little key on the winch that the handle plugs onto?

2. What is the height of the mast on a "Tall Rig" C-25?

3. Can replacement anchor locker covers be purchased, and about how much do they cost, and where do they come from, Catalina?

4. Is the right motor size about 10 HP?

5. The C-25s that we looked at had holding tanks. Our C-22, of course, has a porta-pottie. Is the holding tank worth the trouble, or would I be better off ripping out all the associated plumbing and just installing a porta-pottie on the C-25? There seems to be a pungent onion-like smell associated with the head, even though it was very clean. I have read that the hoses can transmit smell. Can the smell penetrate through the holding tank walls too?

6. It does appear that the keel in the up position is still deeper than the rudder. It this true, and does the keel protect the rudder from breaking off even when the keel is up, if the boat is run into a soft bottom?

7. Does an Autohelm 1000 Autopilot have enough power for a C-25? I probably would have purchased the 2000, based on the preformance of the 1000 on our C-22. One of the C-25s that we looked at had a 1000.

8. About how much does it cost to have all of the cushions recovered?

9. Can a Suburban with a 350 tow a C-25 acceptably?

10. Can a C-22 and C-25 sail together well? Is one much faster than the other?

One of the C-25s that we are looking at is a 1980, just like our C-22 only bigger. We like the appearance of the wood inside of this boat. We will probably get the boat surveyed, although the cost of the boat really isn't that much. I just want to avoid a major problem that I might be overlooking.

If there are any suggestions, comments, or things to watch out for on C-25s, I'm certainly open for suggestions.

Thanks, Aldo

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 00:54:43

1. Isn't there a lock to the swing keel?...

No lock, but a properly fitting swing keel will have a hand-in-glove fit to the keel trunk... this helps keep it in place. Fit of keel pin to keel, condition of mounts is also critical. Consensus is that the SK should not be sailed with the keel up as the side forces on the keel will not be well controlled.

I'm 50 plus years old and have no problems winching the keel up... wife and 12 year old son handle it fine too. I've not had any problems with my winch... I believe it's the original, nearly 30 years old.

2) Tall rig... Exact specs are in the reprints of the owners manual on this site... I want to say about 32' off the top of my head. Standard is about 3' shorter.

3. Can replacement anchor locker covers be purchased, and about how much do they cost, and where do they come from, Catalina?

I haven't seen them offered... but they may still be available. I've pondered building a replacement from Teak. A major third-party replacement parts vendor for C25's is 'Catalina Direct'. They have a very good 'owners bible' that costs about $12 and is worth every penny... Would be worth buying even if you don't have the boat yet.

4. Is the right motor size about 10 HP?

8 to 10 hp is just right. A 25" (XL) shaft is HIGHLY desirable.

5. The C-25s that we looked at had holding tanks. Our C-22, of course, has a porta-pottie...

Opinions vary. Many of the Admirals (wives) like the flush toilets better than the port-a-cans. The right answer may depend on your cruising venue (port-a-cans are prohibited on many Canadian waters) and intended duration of cruises (Port-a-can is typically only good for 4 to 5 days).

6. It does appear that the keel in the up position is still deeper than the rudder...

They are pretty close, but I think the rudder is slightly deeper. How much protection would you get? Dunno. Many of us leave their keel partly down when motoring in shallow water as a 'curb feelers'.

7. Does an Autohelm 1000 Autopilot have enough power for a C-25? I probably would have purchased the 2000, based on the preformance of the 1000 on our C-22. One of the C-25s that we looked at had a 1000.

Folks on this forum use both the 1000 and 2000... and the Simrad models Personally, I'd get a 2000. Important is to not use the autotack feature as the autohelm doesn't have an overtravel limit. The ram can run out to full travel and overload the motor/drive screw.

8. About how much does it cost to have all of the cushions recovered?

I think the answer varies a lot... what material you choose and who you have do it. Many people re-cover their own, find a local upholstery shop or enlist seamstress friends to do it. Complete replacement with brand new sealed foam cushions and covers is expensive. (ca $1000)

9. Can a Suburban with a 350 tow a C-25 acceptably?

IMHO yes, but Suburban equipment can vary quite a bit... varying from essentially a 1/2 ton (1500) package to the 3/4 ton frame. For anything but flatland or local towing you'll want the heavy chassis with a towing package (transmission cooler, springs, swaybars etc).

10. Can a C-22 and C-25 sail together well? Is one much faster than the other?

The C25 is faster, but the two boats should get along well.

Other comments... there's a 'survey guide' on the tech section of this site. It lists some of the common C25 problem areas and other things to look for.

I love my C25. It's a big towing package, but it's darn nice to have enough room on the boat to stay aboard comfortably for a short cruise. It takes me about an 45 minutes to an hour to get it rigged and in the water. Very smooth, stable, and well-mannered.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 07:37:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Aldo
 
1. Isn't there a lock to the swing keel? Does it rock around, or when it is in the down position, does it wedge into the trunk and this wedging action keeps it from rocking from side to side? I believe that the keel weighs 1500 pounds, compared to the C-22's 550 pounds. When the keel is up, does it rock and bang? How hard is it to winch up the keel on the C-25? Are there any problems with the little key on the winch that the handle plugs onto?

Yes, they bang when up

2. What is the height of the mast on a "Tall Rig" C-25?

2' taller plus the boom is 1' lower making the main luff 3' taller. The lower boom is an issue for some. It complicates bimini installations.

3. Can replacement anchor locker covers be purchased, and about how much do they cost, and where do they come from, Catalina?

unknown captain

4. Is the right motor size about 10 HP?

can't go wrong with a 10, 8 is ok

5. The C-25s that we looked at had holding tanks. Our C-22, of course, has a porta-pottie. Is the holding tank worth the trouble, or would I be better off ripping out all the associated plumbing and just installing a porta-pottie on the C-25? There seems to be a pungent onion-like smell associated with the head, even though it was very clean. I have read that the hoses can transmit smell. Can the smell penetrate through the holding tank walls too?

HUGE debate, I have said before that I consider a marine head to subtract a grand from the value of the boat, there is no up side to them to me.

6. It does appear that the keel in the up position is still deeper than the rudder. It this true, and does the keel protect the rudder from breaking off even when the keel is up, if the boat is run into a soft bottom?

what clam said

7. Does an Autohelm 1000 Autopilot have enough power for a C-25? I probably would have purchased the 2000, based on the preformance of the 1000 on our C-22. One of the C-25s that we looked at had a 1000.

don't know

8. About how much does it cost to have all of the cushions recovered?

Deduct a grand

9. Can a Suburban with a 350 tow a C-25 acceptably?

Yes

10. Can a C-22 and C-25 sail together well? Is one much faster than the other?

I have never beaten the local 22 hot shot

One of the C-25s that we are looking at is a 1980, just like our C-22 only bigger. We like the appearance of the wood inside of this boat. We will probably get the boat surveyed, although the cost of the boat really isn't that much. I just want to avoid a major problem that I might be overlooking.

I would not buy an 80 if I had a choice, and you do. The fuel compartment was redesigned in late 81 or early 82. If I had an 80 I would keep my fuel can in the cockpit.

If there are any suggestions, comments, or things to watch out for on C-25s, I'm certainly open for suggestions.

Do not buy a trailerable boat without a trailer! The fin is always the better design if you have the water, however an 80 may also have an iron keel instead of a lead one, someone will report the year of the change. Shop for the absolute best boat you can find. Do not buy the convenient local boat, you will regret it. There are hundreds of these for sale at any one time. 7k should get you a nice boat 12 k should get you a miracle boat. Count on new sails new bottom, trailer repair, and if lines are not lead back then deck hardware. It is easy to drop 3-5k on a used boat in the first year.

Thanks, Aldo

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 08:26:51

Clam, I thought your responses were excellent. A little from my experience with a '85 SKTR:

My keel used to make noise when up until I replaced the hanger hardware four years ago. Not a whisper since then.

My ST 1000 works fine -- plenty of power for the C25.

I have a swing keel and no trailer -- the boat stays overboard year-round. It's never been a problem, and I have no need for some vehicular behemoth just to tow the boat. There are some folks here who really do tow on a regular basis, but I think a C25 is too big to slide in and out of the water every week. There's a recent thread debating how long it takes to get the boat from trailer to sailing condition: if I had to rig the boat every time I wanted to sail, I'd have something smaller and simpler. But your tastes may differ!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 09/29/2004 08:27:26

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 08:35:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 if I had to rig the boat every time I wanted to sail, I'd have something smaller and simpler.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed - the Cat 25 is too big and cumbersome to trailer every weekend for casual daysailing. The Cat 22 is more resonable for that, but still takes a couple hours to set up and launch.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 09:20:35

I agree the Cat 25 is not a boat to take lightly when it comes to trailering. But then again, it is a boat you can trailer. I just went on a trip with mine. The fellow that sailed with me had only one complaint. "How come more sailers from our club didn't go on our organized trips." Sailing is an adventure and cruizing is a big part of that. Some are contented with just going to the lake once a week for the weekly beer can race. Expand your horizons. You have an SUV that will pull the boat with no problems, you have a son that obviously likes to sail-use him afterall you raised him he owes you payback. Above all else, have fun.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 09:29:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 
I would not buy an 80 if I had a choice, and you do. The fuel compartment was redesigned in late 81 or early 82. If I had an 80 I would keep my fuel can in the cockpit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Aldo,

Frank may not be comfortable with the fuel locker arrangement on the earlier C25's, but being an "actual" owner of a 1980 C25, I can personally attest that the fuel locker issue is no big deal. Every once in a while you'll hear negative opinions (usually from those who don't have this model) concerning what can happen due to the fuel tank location, but they can't cite ONE actual instance of something happening on a C25.

So if you have an opportunity to buy a 1980 C25 and it is something you like, I say go for it.

(Oh, and Frank...quit stepping on my boat's resale value!

)

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 10:16:47

I have a 78 fin SR.

TR mast is 30. Bridge clearance is 36. Bridge clearance for the SR is 34.

Right motor is 8 HP, less is OK. XXL shaft is important if ocean or great lakes sailing. Many have 9.9 HP but really can't use that much power. High Thrust models may get less MPG.

Porti-pottie is better in my opinion (simploe is better), but I wouldn't tear out a holding tank system. You can replace the hoses.

All new cushions cost 1900. Recover 1000, I did it myself for about 200 (blue denim).

My C25 is faster than the local non-race prepped C22s but they are close. But then my C25 is faster than anything under 36 around here! Even outpointed and pulled away from a C380 last weekend.

ST-1000 autopilot works fine.

1980 vintage Iron fixed keel is not a big problem, mine has been encapsulated in epoxy. Check keel bolts !

I don't feel unsafe with my 78 fuel locker. > 1980 boats do have many subtle improvements.

Read the self appraisal section on the Tech Tips. Ask us any other questions.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 10:28:32

Hi Aldo,

All answers above are good ones. With regard to a C25 sailing along with a C22 - we used to do this all the time with some friends who owned C22s. If we towed the Fatty Knees dinghy and weren't "picky" with sail trim the three boats would sail along together all day long.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:12:31

We all answer these kind of posts as honestly as we can. I think when newbies ask these questions it is good for them to hear what individuals think. There is no party line here just people giving honest answers based on their personal experiences and opinions. I was stupid enough to buy the first boat I looked at. At my lake a big issue is "transfer of slip" rights with a boat. Had I looked longer I would have gotten a better boat with a slip instead of having to spend the money I have spent and start at the bottom of the slip list. The more a newbie has to think about before they buy the boat the better.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:29:54

Regarding the head, here's a [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7499&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=head"]link[/url] to a recent discussion on the issue. Seems that one's choice is a very personal thing, like Ford v. Chevy. Only YOU can decide for you. To me, the act of regularly dumping a portapotti could never be simple

.

If that boat has a bad smell now, there's propably something wrong in the system that the owner has not been able to reasonably fix while prepping the boat for sale -- it could be cheap hoses, but maybe that's not it. It could be a good candidate, however, if you plan to just rip out the whole system and put in a portapotti.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:53:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 
I would not buy an 80 if I had a choice, and you do. The fuel compartment was redesigned in late 81 or early 82. If I had an 80 I would keep my fuel can in the cockpit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Aldo,

Frank may not be comfortable with the fuel locker arrangement on the earlier C25's,

(Oh, and Frank...quit stepping on my boat's resale value!

)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We all know that on a given boat the condition and particulars set the price. (What did you pay for your boat Don?) For a given year our Catalina 25s are worth more money than any comparable boat, that is where our value lies, not in trying to make it seem that all Catalina 25s are equal. I wish I had known about Larry's Mark system when I was shopping for a boat. All of our boats are not worth the same and improvements do matter or they would not make them. Model differences should not be a deal buster on a given boat but they sure should be acknowledged and considered. I really envy the wing keel, flat floor Mark IVs and excluding the condition of a particular boat acknowledge that a Mark IV is worth much more than my boat.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 15:55:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 We all know that on a given boat the condition and particulars set the price. (What did you pay for your boat Don?) For a given year our Catalina 25s are worth more money than any comparable boat, that is where our value lies, not in trying to make it seem that all Catalina 25s are equal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, the condition and particulars of a boat affect the price, but, like everything else that is bought and sold, the market sets the price. As for what I paid for my boat, I paid relatively little, but the price I paid had absolutlely nothing to do with fuel lockers, cast irons keels, no trailer, cushions, to-hulls, leaking windows,...etc. My price was set due to circumstances (owner hadn't used it in years, didn't want to clean it up, sold it in the off season, needed the money for kid's private school, sitting on cradle in his backyard) and the market. By market I mean both the economy and new/used boat market. As a matter of fact, I sold an older, bare bones, much much less equipped Macgregor (Venture) 25 for more money than I paid for my C25. It sold for more because it was clean, sold in better market conditions, and I wasn't in a hurry.

As for making all C25's seem equal, who's doing that? I'm just trying to keep people from sinking my boat by trying to dispel rumors that my boat is dangerous with it's fuel tank setup, or that one shouldn't buy my trailerable boat because is doesn't have a trailer, or that my marine head takes $1,000.00 off the price, or that one must deduct another grand for my original cushions, or that there is something inherently wrong with my cast iron keel,....! Geez, by following this logic I would have to pay someone to take my boat!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 "...I wish I had known about Larry's Mark system when I was shopping for a boat. All of our boats are not worth the same and improvements do matter or they would not make them. Model differences should not be a deal buster on a given boat but they sure should be acknowledged and considered. I really envy the wing keel, flat floor Mark IVs and excluding the condition of a particular boat acknowledge that a Mark IV is worth much more than my boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I won't comment on Larry's so-called Mark system since I don't recognize it, but as far as a later model boat having more value than an older one, no one is arguing that point because, in general, a newer boat (or car, or truck, or PWC) will have more worth than an older one regardless of options or configurations, but I don't think one has to devalue an older model to prove that a newer model is worth more.

Additionally, something doesn't quite sit well with me when the C25 Mainsheet Technical Editor for the C25/250 National Association says "I would not buy an 80 if I had a choice..." in answer to an inquiry, because, by virtue of your position on the staff, someone might put extra weight on your response.

I like the story someone once posted about Frank Butler in which a reporter or someone asked him what his favorite boat model was, and he responded by asking the questioner, "Do you have children?" to which the questioner said, "Yes". Then Frank asks, "Which one's your favorite?".

Edited by - dlucier on 10/01/2004 00:44:01

jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 17:52:02

4. Is the right motor size about 10 HP?

+++ Factory recommends 9.9 longshaft

5. The C-25s that we looked at had holding tanks. Our C-22, of course, has a porta-pottie. Is the holding tank worth the trouble, or would I be better off ripping out all the associated plumbing and just installing a porta-pottie on the C-25? There seems to be a pungent onion-like smell associated with the head, even though it was very clean. I have read that the hoses can transmit smell. Can the smell penetrate through the holding tank walls too?

+++ Check for leaks, replace hoses, buy rebuild kit for head, check bilge. I would stick with factory system.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 20:09:23

I think we need to be careful with the term "newbie." Many of our posters are "newbies" according to the title they are given based on the number of posts the author has made. Actually, many of our newbies are highly experienced sailors with much more experience than those with more glamorus titles, again, all based on number of posts.

Title has absolutely nothing to do with skill level, experience or anything else regarding sailing or boating. A "newbie" might be a "newbie", then again, he or she might be seasoned blue water sailor.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2004 : 22:17:03

First, disregard my title--it's sort of a joke...

Next, Frank: Brooke may not have seen your post when he wrote his--I doubt he was purposefully ignoring you. (But I could be wrong.

)

A few more opinions:

- The factory's recommendation was written long before the days of high-thrust 4-strokes, with which 8 hp is more than adequate. Any owner facing 3-foot seas or big wakes will tell you to get an extra-long (25-28") shaft to keep the prop in the water.

- Use the Search function above to look up "head" and "potti". There are as many opinions as there are factors...

- The "Mark" designations one of our members devised are useful for understanding the four major evolutionary steps of the C-25, and the inherent differences in value that can be affected as much or more by the "mark" than by the year. For example, a '90 is not worth as much more than an '89 as an '89 is over an '88. Knowing those differences is useful when buying a C-25. They are all good boats, but they're somewhat different. (Maybe Larry should have called them "H, I, J, and K" so as not to appear to be disparaging anyone.)

- I agree that a C-22 will comfortably sail with a C-25... But a warning: There's an old saying that any time two sailboats are within sight of each other, there's a race going on. You might find yourself pressing to keep from being beaten by your sons!

- Everything else here is good info, as you can expect from this group.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/29/2004 22:19:47

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 14:57:09

I don't think the running changes made to the C25 has that much to do with the value of the boat and, after perusing the 72 C25's listed on Yachtworld, there doesn't seem to be much correlation between model year and value either. Take for example the 89 C25 listed for $9,995.00 and the 77 listed for $9,900.00. Or the fact that 11 of the 14 C25's listed over $10,000 are 85 and older models. There does appear to be a a little more depreciation in value with the older boats, but this would be expected with boats, cars, trucks,...etc.

For me, this pretty much puts to rest the notion that one C25 is "worth" more than another due to it's configuration or even year. For an individual, a C25 of a particular year and configuration might be valued more than another, but the broader market doesn't seem to bear this out. One person might value a swing over a fin, while another prizes a fixed head over a porta-potty, but these individual preferences don't seem to affect the overall market value.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 (Maybe Larry should have called them "H, I, J, and K" so as not to appear to be disparaging anyone.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A rose...er, Mark, by any other name still stinks!

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 16:20:05

When I put Silver Girl on the market, which won't be for the forseeable future, I would hope that prospective buyers take note of the fastidious maintenance, extensive equipment, pristine interior and TLC she has recieved as well as the Bristol condition she is in when they do the mental accounting necessary to make an offer.

But if all else fails to sweeten the pot I'll certainly focus on the fact that she is one of the very rare, elite, much sought after Mark Vs available on the market.

Edited by - oldsalt on 09/30/2004 16:22:05

aeckhart
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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 16:24:42

I motored down to the local marina from my mooring today. I had to have my holding tank pumped out prior to putting her away for the winter. We have snow in the forcast for this weekdend........or all things. Anyway, I didn't have to touch an nastys, a marina attendant did all the work, and I had an enjoable day on my boat. I like my holding tank.

It seems we have a squal on the horizon, a heated argument, er....discussion about boat value. I think Don is right, a boat is worth what the market will bear, but only what the owner can get above and beyond it's assessed value. Can I expect to get added value from the rigid boom vang I installed, the internal main outhaul, the three sets of double clutches, two anchors, autopilot, etc,etc.? The answer is, maybe. If I value my boat more than the market will bear and price it to recoup the cost of "stuff" I put on it, I'm probably going to have it in my yard a long time. At least until someone comes along who likes it as much as I and will pay the price I want (or negotiate I price we can both tolerate). This is basic economics - supply and demand stuff. Is it worth all this heat?

I do like the effort to establish the model year differences by pinning them down as a "mark". It could have been "potatos", "mark" will do though. Catalina seems to like the term with their recurring new model improvements. I was always curius about the older models and the improvements Catalina made over the years. Thanks Larry for your effort.

OK, that's my two cents worth.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
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Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 19:47:51

No offense intended, Frank.

Brooke

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RichardG
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990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 19:55:18

When he first brought it up on the forum, Larry's Mark ‘system’ (which I’ve noticed is occasionally inaccurate or inconsistent) perked my interest because I was quite interested in the changes Catalina made through the years of the C25. As my very first car was a ’70 Cougar, it’s just like the interest I have in the changes Mercury made to that model during its production run. However, upon further review it became readily apparent that Larry’s system does not fall into the traditional Mark system used by Catalina Yachts, Columbia, etc. It's visually very apparent from great distance that the two C22 Marks, C36 Marks, Columbia 26 Marks, etc. are quite different boats. If you asked a sailor not as well informed as us about Catalina or Columbia boats to distinguish between those different Mark boats, they would quickly see the differences. If you ask the same sailor to distinguish between, say, an '81 C25 and an '89 C25, they would be hard pressed to distinguish the two and would certainly say the difference is not anywhere as great as between two different real (company endorsed) Mark boats. By the same reasoning, I, by being somewhat well informed about the changes Mercury made to the Cougar, can distinguish between model years with a quick glance – I’d guess other car enthusiasts much more knowledgeable than I about cars in general do not have the same ability. While I think it's definitely interesting to know the changes Catalina Yachts made in the C25, and when they made them, those changes clearly did not warrant different Mark designations by the company (although I suppose, had there not been a break in production, they could have chosen to instead name the C250 the ‘C25 Mark II’). While Catalina and Columbia have used the Mark system for completely different reasons, Larry’s is clearly a different animal -- a big reason why many of us do not endorse or respect it. I believe that sticking to model years is more simple, customary and appropriate, and that Larry’s system only serves to alienate a significant portion of our members.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2004 : 20:37:44

Geez... A Continental Mark II is worth considerably more than a Continental Mark VIII... Why the hurt feelings?

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lcharlot
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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2004 : 01:10:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 sticking to model years is more simple, customary and appropriate,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My reason for creating the "Mark" system was that it proved to be difficult to pin down the many incremental design revisions to either specific model years, or hull numbers, due to lack of specific data on enough boats to make a good statistical sample. Many of the changes seem to span across two model years, for examle, some '80's have been reported to have the separate gas tank locker, so you can't say that this is strictly an "'81" model year feature. Likewise with the flush mount cabin windows: some late '85's have them. My "Mark" system simply serves to identify the three major revisions to the deck and liner mold: Mk. II's have the safer, separate gas locker, Mk. III's have the flush mount cabin windows, and Mk. IV has the lowered cabin floor (with 5" more headroom than all previous Cat 25's). There were, of course, dozens of other improcvements through the years, as well as three different interiors, and three different keels, two different rigs, etc, etc., but I just don't have enough data to tabulate everything, so I settled on the deck changes as the most obvious visible changes that can be detected by just looking at a Catalina 25 from dockside. Sorry if my Mark system has ruffled some feathers, but I get about equal numbers of comments from people who like it, and say it was helpful to them when they were boat shopping, as I do negative comments from the "surly curmudgeons" and Anti-Mark purists. Lighten up, people!

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2004 : 01:20:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 "...I do like the effort to establish the model year differences by pinning them down as a "mark".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm...Don't tell, let me guess...you own a wing keel with a nice flat floor and cool windows.

Well, of course you like the mark thing. That's because you are dining on a cream puff (MK IV) whereas I'm stuck munching on a turd (MK I)!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2004 : 01:35:09

Edited by - dlucier on 10/01/2004 01:38:02

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2004 : 07:17:45

Hi Aldo,
Welcome to the C25 forum.
I remember when you helped me out with some questions I had with my C22, and you even sent me some pics, I believe it was about how you installed your autopilot.
Now that I'm a former C22 owner, and now have a 25 let me make a few observations.
I like my C25 a lot more than the 22. The extra room is really nice to have, as I like to spend a couple of weeks at a time on it every winter in the Keys. I trailer it 1000 miles one way with my full size 4wd pickup. It is harder to rig than the 22 due to the heavier and longer mast. Having a furler adds a little more of a challange.
Just like on the C22 forums, there is always a discussion going on about swing vs wing vs fin keel. I bought an 89 wing (the so called Mark 4) and like it very much. After dropping the swing on my 22 and fairing it, changing cables etc. I decided that I didn't want any more of these maintenance issues, and bought a purpose built wing. While shopping around for a wing keel boat I looked at two converted swings to wing. One was done very well, and the other one didn't impress me. You still have a stepped floor, and a keel trunk. I do like my flat floor.
With that said, you will have a harder time finding an 89 wing, and will pay more.
Whichever boat you buy, the C25 is far superior to the Hunters, in most of our opinions.
I'm sure that you will join our association and will be a valuable asset. You may be a "newbie" to this forum, but I do know that you know a lot about boats. Heck, you probably know more about Catalina 25's now than most surveyors. But a haul out is still a good idea.
Once you are sailing, with a balanced rudder the C25 responds a lot better to tiller action than the C22. That surprised me. It is also a little faster (I have a tall rig) Having a small kitchen area is great when gunkholing. That slide in kitchen on the 22 was a joke. Having a dedicated area for the head is great, whichever type of toilet/porta potti you get. One boat I looked at had a real head, and the owner didn't even pump out the tanks so it could be tested, and the whole boat smelled of sewage. I didn't buy it.
I installed an 8 hp high thruse extra long shaft Honda, and it has plenty of power. Extra long shaft is really important.
Catalina direct has a really good book, just like the C22 book. Get it.
Buy a 25 and join us. Good luck
These are my opinions, I may be wrong.

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