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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel Trunk Reinforcement

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/13/2002 : 01:22:53

Hello,
I'm a new member and new owner of a 1980 standard rig, swing keel C25. This winter I've been working on several projects. I noticed on the starboard side of the keel trunk a rectangular cutout in the cabin floor. Under this cutout were two loose 2x4's. The 2x4's were wrapped with fiberglass cloth that was coming off. The boards were so loose, I was able to pull them out easily. Looking through my Catalina literature, I found out these boards are part of a keel trunk reinforcement retrofit of some sort. There are also similar, but, larger boards on the port side of the trunk. These seem fairly solid on my boat. I do plan on refiberglassing the loose boards back in, but, am wondering how important they are. Even if solid, it seems they would support the floor more than the trunk. By the way, sailing the boat on South Puget Sound this fall, we had no problems with the keel or trunk; no banging; or leaking. Any input on this would be appreciated, and thanks for all the great tips I've been getting on this forum.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2002 : 01:45:35

Hi Doug:
If you ever plan on going up to the San Juans you will need to have the reinforcement in place. You can encounter 3 to 4 foot chop when the tide turns against the wind. Just about anywhere north of the Narrows Bridge. I have a fin keel in Tacoma and have been out in some realy bad snot. I would want every advantage I could have.

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2002 : 02:04:40

Where did you find the literature on this keel trunk retrofit? It wasn't in any of my 1984 Catalina literature.

I've got a swing keeler and would like to beef up the trunk area also. I would think that the area that would need reinforcement would be on the aft end of the keel trunk where the top of the keel would bang if it swung loose.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2002 : 09:26:52

Albert,

Catalina changed the layup schedule for the swing keel trunk at some time during the model's production run. The later trunks have a couple more layers of 24oz. roving, particularly at the fore and aft ends. I added this to mine using WEST epoxy. If you like, I can try to e-mail you the drawings.

And yes, you're quite correct about the vulnerability of the aft end of the keel trunk. Mine had some poorly repaired damage there which I suspect was caused by the boat going aground with the keel all the way up, combined with a bit of wave action. (I ground away the previous repair back down to factory fiberglass, and piled on the WEST and fiberglass cloth from the outside, and 24oz roving from the inside. It's thick and stiff there now!)

I try to stay informed on Catalina 25 swing keel issues, but this is the first I've heard of the 2x4s. In my boat (1979) there's not much between the cabin sole and the bottom of the hull. Maybe someone added the 2x4s to that boat later to reinforce the sole for whatever reason.

-- Leon Sisson

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2002 : 22:25:35

Thanks Douglas for the info on the San Juans. I haven't been sailing that long, so want a bit more experience before I venture up there.

For Albert and Leon, the trunk reinforcement literature that came with my boat is from Catalina, and appears to be part of a kit that Catalina sent out. I'm not sure if it was for dealers or the customer. It includes a parts list, instructions, and drawings. The kit even included a fiberglass cover panel for a bilge access cut-out that had to be made on the port side of the trunk. I made a few copies, and could send them if you are interested. One thing, it states it is for Catalinas with traditional interiors only. I'll try to contact the previous owner to see who did the work on my boat. Like I said, it wasn't done very well! I'm not looking forward to doing the work, as it looks like a very small area to work in, but want this part of my boat to be very strong.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 09:48:50

Doug L,

Sounds like something that should be scanned and put on the list. I for one would be interested in seeing it.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni

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Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 10:05:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I for one would be interested in seeing it.
Val Bisagni
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why, Val? Did you re-retrofit Calista back to a swinger?? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 13:17:53

Val,
I don't have a scanner, but am sending copies of the drawings and literature to Leon Sisson. Maybe he would be able to scan them and make them available.

Doug Lewis

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 15:21:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Doug L,

Sounds like something that should be scanned and put on the list. I for one would be interested in seeing it.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll second that. If Leon can't scan it, send it to me and I'll scan and post. E-mail me for my mailing address.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Don Hood
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2002 : 22:37:00

Hey Albert, you have a pretty boat. She looks great! Mine is a 1980 tall rig. I would like to see everything I can on the swing keel. I keep checking and everything looks good but a little extra protection is always good.

Don on Namaste' #1929

Don on Namaste' #1929

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2002 : 00:42:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey Albert, you have a pretty boat. She looks great! Mine is a 1980 tall rig. I would like to see everything I can on the swing keel. I keep checking and everything looks good but a little extra protection is always good.

Don on Namaste' #1929

Don on Namaste' #1929
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks Don.

I am constantly checking. I cut out all the "bondo" type gunk next to the forward keel trunk. It had cracked and the only thing it was doing was hiding the surface of the keel trunk. I've also installed an inspection hatch on the aft part of the keel trunk head (I've got the dinette model). The inspection port is covered by a piece of rectangular starboard. Easy to inspect now. While I was there I sanded and added an extra piece of fiberglass mat with West System epoxy.

Also the hatch adds a margin of safety/recovery. If it happens to crack from a keel drop while I'm on the boat, I've at least a chance to open the inspection hatch and temporarily plug up the hole. Without the hatch the dinette base could prevent my ability to save crew and boat.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2002 : 03:17:59

If you have to do repair work with some uneven edges I would go to an auto body paint store. Not OSH or kragen. And get fiberglass filler. This is a filler with fiberglass fibers embeded in it. I have been using it on my corvett and works great. I know, I don't have to worry about the car floating.
Matt

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2002 : 22:36:01

<center>OK, here's the situation on the scanned copies of the drawings and literature</center>

I received the swing keel trunk reinforcement info package a couple of days ago from Doug Lewis, and have scanned them. The hard copies weren't the finest of reproductions. I'm not criticizing Doug -- I've gotten C-25 drawings from Catalina Yachts in the past, and the image quality is always marginal. (Can't they afford a decent copy machine, or are they afraid that if they give us good enough drawings, we'll start building boats from them?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) I scanned them at 300dpi, and the resulting four ".GIF" files range in size from about 150KB to 200KB. The server I've been sneaking my images onto has a 100KB file size limit. My assumption is that those of you who are interested in these at all, would prefer the 300dpi resolution for readability (such as it is). The set consists of a page of instructions, a one page materials list, and two pages of drawings. If you like, I can e-mail them to each person who is interested. If I get dozens of requests, then we'll think of something else. My current e-mail address is <SissonL@MPInet.Net> In your e-mailed request, let me know if you prefer ".ZIP" or ".GIF" file format. If you ask for ".GIF", can you receive 700KB in 4 attachments at once, or what?

P.S. Albert, that's a very clever idea about the access panel for the head of the keel trunk!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 03/19/2002 22:40:37

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2002 : 23:50:46

Leon,
Sorry about the quality of the copies, but the originals are probably over 20yrs old, and not in the best condition. I was looking at the trunk reinforcements again on my boat, and noticed the 2x6's on the port side of the trunk aren't as solid as I thought. Working under the floor on either side of the trunk is difficult at best, and I can see why its difficult to do a good job. Do early dinette models have any added wood supports? As I stated earlier, My trunk shows no sign of damage at all, but I want to to make sure it stays that way, and want to redo these supports if they are important. I like Alberts idea of more support on the aft portion of the trunk, and plan on adding a couple layers of roving over that area. Any more suggestions on beefing up the trunk on the inside of the boat?
Doug Lewis

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2002 : 20:40:01

Doug Lewis,

Please don't feel you need to apologize for the quality of the copies, like I said, I realize they came that way from Catalina. The only reason I mentioned it at all was so other people wouldn't get their hopes up, and to help explain one reason why I felt I needed to scan them at such a high resolution.

Re: "Do early dinette models have any added wood supports?" My 1979 swing keel dinette model doesn't seem to have come with any wood bracing the head of the trunk, other than the approx. 4x4 mast compression post, which was formerly "attached" to the trunk with what looked like a bad batch of polyester body putty. There's some sort of general purpose filler mush that they used everywhere they needed to fill a gap. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was composed of left over resin and sifted floor sweepings from the woodshop.

Re: "... more support on the aft portion of the trunk ... adding a couple layers of roving over that area." Yeah, I did. Try to picture the boat getting into shallow water over hard packed sand (or heaven forbid rocks) with some waves bumping it up and down. (I'll leave the size of the waves to your imagination, but try not to damage your heart.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) At the forward end, the pivot attachments would dissipate the worst of it. Aft, the pointy trailing tip of the keel would be poking up into the rounded aft end of the keel trunk. (As well as trying to pinch the lower terminal of the cable between the trunk and keel in a position the designer never intended!) Once you start adding some epoxy and roving to the aft end of the trunk it's very little more expense and effort to add plenty more. Just be sure you clean, grind, and clean the old fiberglass so the epoxy will get the best mechanical bond possible. And taper your work out onto the surrounding hull 6" or so. Actually, there's probably some optimum slope, like 1" per layer, or 12:1, or something like that, I don't know for sure.

Re: "Any more suggestions on beefing up the trunk on the inside of the boat?" I added a 1/4" or 5/16" plywood core to the vertical aft panel of the forward dinette seat inside the locker. The plywood extends port to stbd. from the topsides of the hull to the head of the keel trunk, and vertically from the liner to hull tabbing to the top lip of the seat platform. The new plywood is tabbed to the trunk and hull with 24oz roving and WEST epoxy.

Also, if you can get a look under the cabin sole, see how well the long lower edges of the trunk are blended into the bottom of the hull. One would hope that would not be an area where the factory would be stingy with the glass and resin. Lots of luck getting in there if you need to.

Something I think I've observed, and was trying to address (and I think Catalina was trying to address,) is the swing keel trunk rocking from side to side in the boat. When I run aground with the keel down and the boat heeled, I hear little creaking and groaning noises from the general area of the front of the trunk that I don't notice under less stressful circumstances. I'm not talking about "Oh my God! We're all gonna die!" noises, just "hmm, it doesn't usually do that..." noises. I think some flexibility is a good thing to help disipate shock loads. (That's why we have tires, shocks, and springs on our road vehicles.) But too much movement, or too much force being concentrated in too small a volume of fiberglass wouldn't be good. It looks to me like what Catalina is trying to do with this mod, and what I intended with mine, is to get more of the hull and liner involved in stabilizing the head of the trunk from side to side.

This is getting long, and my fingers are getting tired.

-- Leon Sisson

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2002 : 00:16:53

Thanks, Leon for your input. I think you are correct; the drawings I sent you were intended to stabilize the trunk for side to side stresses. I plan on following your suggestions for strengthing the trunk on my boat. Thanks again,
Doug

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