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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

pintles-gudgeons

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John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/23/2004 : 08:45:10

I've seen discussions here re: replacing pintles and gudgeons with upgrades from CD. Mine seem to be fine, and I am a subscriber to the.."if it's not broke...." philosophy. Is this something that is done as a precaution, or do most of you do this after a failure of some sort?

1987 C 27
#6387

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2004 : 09:31:50

I think that if it is something with a great potential for disaster you should probably swap out asap. For example to hulls or through hull fittings. I think in regards to the gudgeons and pintles, if you keep your eye on them you are fine. But when you see them wearing or coming loose replace at that time with the heaver duty ones.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:56:50

Hi John... The pintles and gudgeons on the C-25 are, in my opinion, more than adequately strong and made of stainless that should last almost forever. The more critical issue is the fasteners. The gudgeons are screwed into threaded bronze plates that, in some cases, are embedded in the resin inside the transom. The bolts and bronze threads are probably the weak point of the system, and should be replaced at least with longer bolts, fender washers, and nylock nuts. The lower gudgeon can be done from the quarterberth, but the upper one requires cutting a hole that can be covered with an inspection port inside the transom. The original gudgeons are plenty strong--the new ones are overkill and, because of the sleeves, just might exacerbate the pintle issue that follows...

The most common problem I've seen with pintles is having them pushed up on the rudder, elongating the forward holes. This is could be caused by years of bouncing on the gudgeons, or by somebody pushing down hard on the rudder head. I've seen evidence that this misalignment can create torshional forces on the shaft of the pintle, possibly even causing it to break. I can't prove this cause-effect relationship, but I've seen a C-25 pintle with a shaft that broke cleanly at the bottom of the strap. Anyway, if your pintles are not square to the rudder, I would suggest removing them, filling the elongated holes with thickened epoxy, and redrilling to position the pintles correctly and provide more resistence to pushing up. I would also suggest looking for cracks in the welds and the pins each year. (I remove the rudder each Fall to prevent freezing of any moisture in its foam core, which can split the blade.)

The last issue is basically a comfort one... Worn gudgeons can add to the "flutter" in the rudder and tiller, which can be annoying. Some people here have fixed that with nylon bushings from the hardware store.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/23/2004 12:33:23

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2004 : 18:04:25

John,
I installed the HD gudgeons last year while I had the boat out for a few projects. There was nothing wrong with the old ones just wanted to replace them with something stronger. I did install the inspection port in the transom (love that Roto-zip) to enable servicing the upper gudgeon. The real benifit of the install was the nylon bushings on the new gudgeons that eliminated any slop from worn gudgeon holes. I figure if the tiller starts getting sloppy, I can just replace the bushings as needed.

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mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 02:13:38

John,

My lower pintle broke off my rudder at the beginning of September. Naturally it broke when I was about a mile and a half off Mission Bay at sunset. But this worked out because I had a lot of sea room to get things under control. The pintle had rusted all the way through which had gone unnoticed through lack of frequent inspection. The pintle was 25 years old. Like Dave said I figured it would last forever. I'm replacing all the hardware with the CD upgrades.

Dave,

I'm sorry I missed you while you were in town.

Edited by - mmac on 10/24/2004 02:16:48

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 19:00:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mmac
 Dave, I'm sorry I missed you while you were in town.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm baaaaack!

Not much time for trips to Mission Bay this time...

But I got to watch an interesting maneuver this afternoon... A Ranger 28 was sailing up to a dock downtown, main alone in a light breeze... Just as he got about 5 feet off the dock, he pulled the traveler hard to windward with the main hardened, and the boat slid sideways right up to the dock. Sorta like a new variation on heaving to, and also something like what I do on a catamaran to back around when I get stuck in irons. That's the second thing I learned about sailing in San Diego--the first was about electrical fires on board...

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 11:54:23

John,

I've participated in several discussions of how to fix the weak fasteners, but I acknowledge your position of "if it ain't broke...etc."

Here is a strong "however": How often do you inspect and tighten your gudgeon screws? Be honest. The lowers are under the darn thing and you can't see them looking over the transom, much less tighten them without removing the rudder. You still have to remove the rudder to access the center screw on the upper, or use a right angle screwdriver thingy.

The screws can, probably will, loosen. They can and will fall out. (Before my first fix, two uppers and two lowers did!) You can strip the brass plate and be unable to tighten the screws (I did).

I hope you will never know the feeling of having your rudder and steering fail. The second time for me found me 100 feet away from a bridge piling, the lack of steering caused my whiskerpole to lock up against the forestay, I could not get the roller jib furled and even tho I dropped the main we were going right at the concrete. The save was quickly deploying the engine and steering back to the original course. Pucker time!

Thru bolting the lowers are an easy fix and good insurance.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 12:27:59

I too follow the philosophy of "if it ain't broke..." but one of my queeziest feelings I've had on my boat is standing at the mast and looking aft to see my tiller angled down touching the floor.
One of the best and, I might add, easiest fixes I've made to my boat is to replace the bottom gudgeon. Took maybe 15 minutes and could be done with the boat in the water. Even did it by myself! (pat on back

) Now I check the tightness of the screws every 3 or 4 outings just to be sure. Haven't gotten around to tackling the upper one yet because of the need to cut such a large hole to get to it. That and 2 more holes to get to the traveller bolts. Wish Frank would have thought of those in the first place.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

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