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Ivan left me with a tough decision

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TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/24/2004 : 11:42:17

The insurance adjustor has decided to declare my 89 wing a total loss. There appears to be no structrual damage, mostly abrasion on the topsides, deeper abrasion at the hull/deck joint, damaged stanchions, rubrail, wench, etc. The repair costs were estimated to exceed the insured value of $10,000.

I can probably buy the boat from the insurance company for the highest bid obtained from a salvage company- probably around $1,000. The owner of the boatyard (whom I trust) said that he could patch it up for an additional $4,000. He was very clear that this was a touch up job that would NOT look great when viewed from close up.

Here's my dilemma. I am very fond of the boat; however, I see a bluewater boat in my future within 4 - 5 years. I have analyzed the differential costs of buying the bluewater boat now vs later, but the big unknown to me is the future market value of a patched up boat. Can I even sell a "salvaged" C25 when there are good, clean C25s available?

I would appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Thanks!

Tom

Tom Albright

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 14:18:48

Your 89 WK is the most desirable of all the Catalinas... most of those models I've seen sell for $15,000 +- (with trailer, in good shape). I don't think you'd have any problem at all recovering your investment ($5,000 +-) in the future.

You might shop around for a good fiberglass shop. IMHO for $4K a good shop should be able to make nearly 'invisible' repairs.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 15:32:34

If you decide not to buy it back perhaps you might offer the opportunity buy it from you after YOU buy it back. Could be the steal of the century for someone good with glass or paint. People on the forum are pretty handy. Heck the SHIPPING on a wing keel is almost what your boat is worth. Just an idea. Can you post pictures?

Tom.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 16:11:50

The yard owner is obviously covering himself. Although not perfect, the repairs might be presentable. It depends on how particular you want to be. Obviously, he doesn't want you to think it's going to come back looking new.
I think it would be a good idea to try to get an idea of what would be the most glaring evidence of repair and then make decision from there. I live with a lot of imperfections in my restored '79.

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 17:42:30

I think you're right; I can live with a few imperfections. I'll have about $5,000 in the boat and can continue to enjoy her. It sounds like everyone thinks I will be able to recover the cost of my repairs when (or if) I ultimately decide to buy the bluewater boat. As usual, I appreciate everyone's thoughts!

Tom

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 20:42:41

FWIW, there's a gentleman named Bill Reed in Florida who can repair your boat without imperfections. He's independent but is an authorized repair technician for Catalina Yachts. He makes house calls all along the east coast each summer and will be heading home for the winter in the next few weeks.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 21:54:59

Tom,

I suggest you choose your fiberglass technician very carefully, and get it fixed.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 21:55:19

Tom -
If your damage is not structural, just cosmetic, and the hull, deck, and rigging are otherwise sound, I would be inclined to do the buyback if I were you, and let the yard patch her up. Do you have a trailer for her? If the answer is "yes", then I would say you should have no trouble selling her and recovering the $5000 repair bill when you get ready to go for that larger boat. As was stated by ClamBeach, the '88-'90 Mk. IV wing keels are the most sought-after Catalina 25's, and out here on the West Coast, they command about $16,000 with a trailer, $12,000 sans trailer.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 22:15:32

Keeping her is a great idea. Will it have a salvage title if it was totaled? One avenue to explore is painting the boat. If you paint, the fiberlass work will be faster and cheaper. With that in mind, you might be able to pull off a complete paint job/fiberglass job for a couple grand. Either way you go, doing some work at home, removing deck hardware, etc will save you $50an hour. This could possibly give you that new boat look and in any color you want. Just another Idea.

Tom.

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 22:50:50

I'm really not sure whether I'll get a salvage title; our state issues them after an insurance company has paid off an auto. That's what I was wondering about, and whether such a title would affect the market value.

That's a good idea about exploring the painting option. I will discuss various possibilities with the yard.

Tom

Edited by - TomA on 10/25/2004 09:18:46

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 23:08:34

The first question is structual. If there is no structual damage I would buy it back. Then call Frank Butler at Catalina and see what he would give you as an estimate for repairs in Largo Florida. You will have to send pictures and pay the freight to take it there if you have no trailer. If you have a trailer you could haul it there yourself.
When the swing keel cable broke on Pretty Penny, 79 SK. and cracked the hull He had the Largo plant repair the boat and installed a wing on it, 88 WK. The thing that was amazing was they replaced all plumbing, electrical, stripped and painted the inside, and replaced the life lines while it was there. The thing is the cost did not change. Wing Keel install including the keel $1600. No charge for the other three pages of repaired items.
I would give it a shot only cost is a phone call. Be sure and tell him the hurricane got you.
Getting in touch with Bill Reed would be my second option. He is the best in the business.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 08:14:56

A couple of years ago a power boat rammed me while I was moored. His bow put a 10" crack in the hull, starboard side, opposite the head. When the his boat spun around, the motor hit the bow and damaged the fiberglass. When repaired you can't tell where the damage occured, even up close. It you site along the hull you can see a very slight indention where the crack was glassed. The bow looks pristine. Cost was about $1800.

I'd fix it and sail it until I was ready to get that blue water boat. I don't think you'll regeret it.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 09:25:44

Wow! I'd say Frank took good care of Pretty Penny! That's a lot of service for $1,600. I think I'll check out all of these options before I leap. Although, I may have a difficult political situation because the same guy owns the marina where I'm docked and boatyard. He has helped me out quite a bit over the years and I don't want to jeopardize that relationship.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 11:15:46

I know its a hard decision ecause we love our boats, but I've learned this lesson before. Take the $10K let the insurance company have the boat. Its a tough call because we can't see photos, but if its that much cosmetic damage it must be extensive.

You can :

buy another one
get an older Cat 25 and keep the change
get something else - how about a nice C28 or C30
keep the money as a down payment for your bluewater boat
use the money to go do a charter every other year in the Virgins

Problem when its time to sell, its called Disclosure. You have to disclose that the boat was salvaged (title or no). If you are going to buy it back either sell it right away (salvage) or part it out.

My opinion, sorry to be the one voice of bad news.

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 15:10:18

Jim, Let's kick this around a little more. Because a bluewater boat is in my future, I have considered one of your points - put the $10,000 into a different cruiser now. I see no need to replace my Catalina (which I am very fond of) with a boat of similar capabilities. I've heard people on this site discuss how much money you can lose buying and selling boats.

But, based on the former comments, it seems unlikely that I will get less than $5,000 for the boat when I sell it (with full disclosure, of course) in the future. How can I lose? In the meantime, my insurance is less, I'm not paying interest on a bluewater boat, and the monthly slip rent is less.

On the other hand, if the boat sits unsold for months when it is time to sell, I will have extra costs for insurance, slip, etc for two boats. A broker that I trust also told me to forget fixing the boat. What am I (we) missing here? Thanks!

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 15:27:46

But are you buying into more trouble if the boat is not repaired properly or if there are problems you don't know about yet?
A better question might be, would you buy the boat if you only knew about its recent history and didn't have any sentemental value in it?
As I've been following this thread I've been pondering what I would do in this situation and I'm not sure my attatchment to my boat would warrant keeping it just for the questions you posed yourself.
I know we all love our boats and its not just the monitary value which comes into question but at some point you have to say enough is enough.
Needless to say I'm still not sure what I would do but I'm leaning towards letting it go and starting fresh with another boat.
Not the popular opinion, just mine.

CVick

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 15:38:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TomA
 ... A broker that I trust also told me to forget fixing the boat. What am I (we) missing here? Thanks!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Tom,

IMHO, here's what's missing here:

... Here's my dilemma. I am very fond of the boat ...

... I see no need to replace my Catalina (which I am very fond of) ...

No broker (or anyone else for that matter) is going to feel the attachment you have for your boat ... to him it's just another boat to sell and make a commission. On the other hand, to you, your boat is like part of your family ... if she's still structurally sound, getting rid of her just doesn't make sense ... that would be kinda' like getting rid of a daughter 'cause she's got crooked teeth.

I admit, I'm reading between the lines ... BUT, it sounds like you feel the same way about your boat that I feel about mine ... she might not be perfect, but she's MY boat, and someone is going to have to pry her from my cold dead hands before I'll give her up.

I'd keep her, sail her, and enjoy her ... if your "blue water boat" turns out to be a dream you never realize, you'll still have many hours of enjoyment out of your "baby."

My two-cent's worth ... I'll step down off my soapbox now ...

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 15:55:45

Let me lay out a few more thoughts. When my wife and I downsize in a few years, our plan is to spend significant time aboard the boat and travel the ICW and also go over to the Bahamas. This adventure could involve living aboard for months at a time. We are considering a Dana 24 or Island Packet 27, among others. As you can see, our dream bluewater boat isn't necessarily larger than the C25. I like simple, small boats. Part of the adventure includes searching for boats and thinking carefully about what we want.

Frankly, my wife would like to have more experience under her belt before we make the financial commitment required for one of these boats. She is probably right. Part of my thinking is that I can fix up the Catalina and sail it relatively inexpensively while we both gain more cruising experience. If I cash out and wait a couple of years before buying another boat, what will I sail in the meantime? Nothing. That doesn't sound like a good prospect either.

I'm probably going to have to make a decision very soon, as the insurance company has already begun the process of acquiring bids.

I really appreciate all of your responses. All of us really are smarter than any one of us.

Tom

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 16:21:10

There are 2 Island Packet 27s for sale in Florida right now for $43K. Take your $10K and go buy one. I know it sounds cold, but you have to look at this like a business decision. This is not selling your daughter because she has crooked teeth. Its spending money wisely enough so you can make your dream come true.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD& units=Feet& checked_boats=1238855& slim=quick&

Maintenance costs are going to be about the same, as is insurance.

Start taking vacation cruises right now.

Payments on a used IP 27 with 10,000 down? About $250/month (20 year loan). Be sailing by next month in the boat you want. The other road leads to months in the boatyard for a boat you don't really want (other than your current emotional attachment).

In 10 years you and the IP 27 will be ready for anything.

I really love my C25. I've put tons of work into her. I've sailed more in a year than most people do in a decade. I'm proud of her, and take pride of ownership in my vessel. I'd take the money.

Edited by - JimB517 on 10/25/2004 16:32:27

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 18:01:39

I would like to chime in AGAIN.

Everything wears out. Gelcoat goes bad and needs paint. Rigging needs replaced. It is the same as a car. The only differance is your boat has hit the lowest price it will ever see. And now will only appreciate. If there is no structural damage, Use the leftover and get a snazzy paint job. Do the srip-down yourself and save a bunbch of money. let the pros glass and paint her and you COULD have the

nicest 25 around. Candy apple red would be nice. With proper documentation, and pictures of everything, you could prove it did not fall off the truck!

Now, Take the leftovers if there are any and invest. Take the $200 a month you are not spending and invest. When you sell, you will get a fair price and have compound interest to play with.

And you get the pleasure of having one of the finest examples of one of the finest 25ft boats ever built.

Keep the boat.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 18:36:09

A short personal story fits here. I once owned a soon-to-be very rare 1985 Fiat Spider sports car. One of the last 1500 made in the world and not sold in th US for two years. I loved that car, babied it spent lots of dollars restoring it to showroom condition. In fact I had just invested $2000 on new paint and $600 on new tires. I let my son drive it one day in 1993. He rear-ended a 1965 Ford Fairlane. Front end pancaked under the Ford. I was devastated, but thankfull my boy or the other driver wasn't hurt. The insurance company had no other book value except a 1983 Fiat and totalled the car. I let it go for the same reasons many are espousing here. Practical stuff like hidden damage, salvage and repair costs, etc, etc. I let it go to the insurance company and regret it to this day.

Your boat, like my Fiat, was a labor of love. Take a long look at repairing it before you let it go.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 10/25/2004 18:37:22

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 19:03:07

Instead of an Island Packet 27 (which has about the same headroom BONK as our C25's)...
May I suggest a C30 ?
There's a lot more C30's available than Island Packets and you might get one at a better price.
And we know the Catalina quality is good.

If the Largo factory could repair your C25 that would be pretty good.
What your broker friend was missing is the desirability factor of reselling your (repaired) wing keel.
A broker may not know that C25 people REALLY like the wing keels.
Especially in the SE where we have a lot of skinny water.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2004 : 12:08:58

To consider: You are never going to get as much for the boat as you are now from the insurance company. There will be considerable effort and expense getting it back in shape. We all know how insidious the repairs can be and how fast bu's can be blown. You already know you really want to move on. Put the insurance money and your efforts into a brand new project. With dedication you probably will be sailing again just as soon with what you really want. 'nother 2cents.

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2004 : 20:18:53

I will butt in on the salvage title. I had a Macgregor 26 totaled and when I bought her back from the insco I did not get a salvage title. Just the original one. I ended up stripping what i wanted and putting her up on e-bay. The buyer, a young guy from Philly and his dad ended up fixing the hull and guess what? They put it back on e-bay. I sold it for 1500.00 and it sold a year later repaired for 6500.00

Just my experience.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2004 : 13:52:27

Tom:

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, especially since I share your enthusiasm for small bluewater boats. I think if I were in your shoes with a dream and $10K in my pocket, I'd be looking to make it happen. Good cruisers don't have to cost an arm and leg. IPs tend to be notoriously over priced. Check out this [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=quick&boat_id=1280158&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1406&url="]Contessa 26[/url]. This type of boat has been around the world several times, is relatively fast and can probably be had for just over $20K. It's true that boats are a hole in the water where you throw money. You might as well throw it at the boat you're going to keep!

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2004 : 15:46:51

I am absolutely blown away by the number and quality of responses to my question. I appreciate all of the time and mental energy everyone has put into my issue.

We are planning to go to the coast this weekend to look at a few boats. Though I have been there a couple of times, my wife hasn't seen our C25 since the storm. There is one piece of the puzzle that I seem to have overlooked in my analyisis. My wife is not as experienced in sailing as I am. However, she has recently decided (on her own without pressure) to take sailing lessons and work together toward a common goal of cruising. I think she feels that to purchase OUR cruising boat now, before she can contribute to the decision, is premature. For example, she can't answer questions about whether she prefers sloop or cutter, tiller or wheel, kerosene or alcohol, or propane in the galley galley, etc, etc.

Fixing the C25 and sailing her for say 2-3 years may enable my wife to gain the confidence and skills necessary to be an equal partner in deciding which boat to buy. Of course, there is a fairly limited set of boats that fit the basic criteria. She may see something that appeals to her on dimensions of comfort, layout, etc. and say lets take the money and start learning (and investing in) our new boat now.

Ha, I thought sailing was simple!

Edited by - TomA on 10/27/2004 17:25:22

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.