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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Varnish / cetol over epoxy

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Dan86
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130 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/27/2004 : 14:41:47

I plan to recut a bulk head and planned to "encapsulate" the ply wood with epoxy and then either cetol or varnish. My question is this,(i apologize in advance for my naivity) The epoxy goes on first, then do you stain, then varnish, or do you use a varnish with the color you want in it, or, can cetol go on over epoxy? Thanks for the info. Dan86

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1775 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2004 : 16:34:23

Hi Dan,

I'm certainly no expert ... of course, that won't stop me from offering an opinion ...

You didn't say what sort of plywood you intend to use. It seems to me that the kind of plywood you use will determine whether or not you will want to stain it. If, for example, you are able to find some teak plywood ($$$), I would think you would just varnish over that since teak is beautiful wood to begin with.

On the other hand, if the plywood is "plain," it seems to me that you would have to stain it before you put any epoxy on it. Also, once you have put an epoxy coat on it, it seems to me that any additional "varnishing" (i.e. Cetol over epoxy) would be a boo boo ... the epoxy would serve as your "varnish."

You might want to contact John who owns "Nim Bimash" ... he has done similar work with plywood in the port lazarette on his C-25. I know he recently made a post about "cutting" slow-curing epoxy with 50% xylene. Maybe he'll see this post and comment about it again.

Good luck with your project ... please keep us posted on your progress!

Edit: 'Looks like I'm wrong about the varnish over epoxy ... I just found John's post, and here's what he said:

Posted - 11/19/2004 : 21:05:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I use west epoxy, with a slow cure hardener, mix it up to start the process and then cut it by 50% with xylene. It takes several days to cure but after that it will take varnish and look great. The thing that's great is that once the process is done the finish will never crack or check. Moisture can't get under the finish to expand or contract the wood. Bright work stays nice longer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John V. Nin Bimash II
Neebish Island, MI
77 C25 sk/sr #153

Edited by - Buzz Maring on 11/27/2004 16:42:31

Dan86
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Response Posted - 11/27/2004 : 19:23:35

Buzz, Is varnish tinted in a variety of colors? I plan to use marine grade plywood and try to get close to the color of the original teak, I do not want to have to change the other bulkhead out unless it looks too different. thanks again for the info, Danny

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 11/27/2004 : 20:03:05

Buzz, Is varnish tinted in a variety of colors?

Hi Danny,

Believe me, I'm already way out of my league here ... I hope someone who has done a lot of woodwork chimes in soon ...

Although I've done quite a bit of varnishing, my experience has been limited to marine spar varnish and Cetol. I do think that varnishes come in different shades, but their ability to change the color of the underlying wood is a bit limited ... they are transparent, so I would think that the color of the wood underneath will have a lot to do with the final color.

I think the only way you will ever be able to match the color of your other teak bulkhead will be to use a stain. I hate to say it, but I think you're going to have a really tough time matching the color of the old bulkhead ... 'hope I'm wrong about that. If they don't match after you're done, maybe you could stain the old bulkhead to match the new, rather than replacing it only for cosmetic purposes.

Have you tried to find teak plywood? It would be more expensive, but the extra money spent might be well worth the grief and time of trying in vain to match stains.

'Better still, you could buy a used replacement bulkhead. There were a lot of C-25s damaged beyond repair in last summer's hurricanes ... a little searching might find you a bulkhead that is already a perfect fit and a match for the other side, at a fraction of the cost of building/buying a new one ... 'just a thought.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2004 : 20:46:58

Hmmm... Tough choices. First, I'd forget about the Cetol--it is intended for use on bare teak that is exposed to the elements, and probably won't adhere well to epoxy. Buzz's experience suggests that regular varnish will do better, which is what I would have expected.

As for marine-grade plywood, I'm not optimistic that you can make it look at all like teak--the grain of fir is very exagerated, especially when finished, while teak is very subtle. I'd suggest that, if you can't justify teak-veneered plywood, that you go with something like a luan veneer. Just make sure it's real plywood (5 plys for 3/4")--not just a single-layer core (as in furniture), which can have large voids that could weaken your chainplate anchors (unless you can get the the voids to fill with epoxy). A little experimenting with some scrap luan could lead you to a stain that is very close to the color of your existing teak.

There are some furniture finishes that are essentially tinted varnish, and they might mute the grain of your plywood somewhat (a plus or a minus, depending on the plywood).

Even with teak-veneered plywood, you might have some challenges with the color... The oils in (and added to) teak tend to darken it in an interior environment. Again, experiment with some scaps--I have a paint store that will do test samples with various stains, so you might be able to find one, too.

BTW, I'll suggest that, if possible, you do the epoxy treatment
after you've drilled the holes for the chainplate bolts, for strength and moisture resistance. (I haven't done this replacement.

)

So now that I've told you more than I know, I'd better shut up.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/27/2004 20:55:21

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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1180 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2004 : 21:22:17

Okoume mahogany is the closest marine plywood you will get to teak in my opinion, though the grain is not as fine and it is a bit darker, it is attractive. Just an idea.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 00:36:25

Why would someone want to soak their bulkhead in epoxy? Mr. Butler doesn't. The weight and trouble do not seem to provide any benefit to me. Have you called Catalina to ask about a new one? They buy in bulk.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 10:29:44

Agree with Frank. If you keep water out by making sure your chainplates are properly caulked (as you should) the bulkhead will last a hundred years. IMHO: No need to epoxy coat the entire bulkhead.

If you really want to put some epoxy on, use a syringe to soak the exposed plywood core in the chainplate holes themselves. That part will be covered by the chainplate on one side and the fender washers on the other side... you can then finish the bulkhead with whatever suits your fancy.

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Todd Frye
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Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 19:48:28

Lots of good advise (as usual) from the above posts. I recently took a woodworking course at the university I work for. I’ve been making sawdust since I was a kid, but thought I’d see if I missed anything by taking a “formal” class. I did find out that plywood comes in: maple, figured maple, red oak, white oak, quarter sawn oak, cherry, walnut, mahogany, teak, etc., etc. When you lay a finish on these woods, dramatic things happen. The rich beauty of each wood comes out. Clear finishes come in shellac, lacquer, varnish and synthetics (urethane).Each has it's own flavor. I like to use gloss spar varnish over epoxy for an incredible deep mirror like finish. Stop by your local university/trade school and talk to the instructor. Check out the student projects towards the end of semester (now) and see first hand what different woods look like. They probably have scraps you could take home and try a few finishes on. Local woodworking shops will have their own slant on finishing, and at some point you just have to jump in and go for it. Take notes and record your information.
Fine Woodworking @ http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/index.asp usually has at least one article per issue on finishes. Should be at your local library. Above all, have fun with it. Enjoy the process. Todd Frye

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Dan86
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Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 21:20:19

I want to thank all for the input. I am replacing the bulkhead due to rot that was not taken care of by the PO. The top hole in the chainplate was soft to the touch, and after removing the bulkhead, the three bolt holes at the bottom had become oval in shape and had some rot there as well. My thought to encapsulate the entire new bulkhead came from a previous post, however, I think I may coat the end grain with epoxy, and stain the marine grade plywood to match as close as possible and go with that. I liked the idea of using a water based stain like minwax, prior to the epoxy 105/207 application of three coats and then three or four coates of varnish, but, it would look really out of place for just one panel on my boat! I learned alot from the process and will continue to benefit from this great forum. Danny

Edited by - Dan86 on 11/28/2004 21:21:41

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 22:32:36

Dan86,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The top hole in the chainplate was soft to the touch, and after removing the bulkhead, the three bolt holes at the bottom had become oval in shape and had some rot there as well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Are you sure you need to replace the bulkhead? If the rot is localized, I'd be tempted to dig or cut it out, and repair the hole with epoxy and filler. The details of the technique and what filler to use would depend somewhat on the size and shape of the damage. Unless the whole bulkhead is compromised, patching would likely be easier and a better cosmetic solution than total replacement.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dan86
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Response Posted - 11/28/2004 : 22:59:37

Leon, thanks for chiming in, I always have respected your input. the section of the bulhead at the top, at the highest bolt of the chainplate is missing any wood left at all. The epexy repair would be all that was in that area. Similarly, at the lower part, the rot is 1/2 the thickness of the bulkhead and was scraped off during removal by a final screw that was not seen, and obviously not holding anything. I contemplated that as well, but did not feel that I would have a great surface for the epoxy to grab and give great support and that it would continue to be weak even after the repair. Any other thoughts. i thought about making a trim piece along the cabin top over the entire bulkead top to cover the upper epoxy repair, (doing that on both sides to ensure uniformity) and running a similar piece down both chainplates to look like "trim", that would give some support and hide the epoxy only repair the top. Anyway, those were my thoughs, I hate to be paralyzed by analyzing too much. Think I will go with marine plywood, end coated with epoxy and trying to staing as close as possible, then plan of replceing the other as needed. I will be sure to seal the chainplate again, as i did when I got this boat. thanks Danny

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2004 : 01:02:52

My two cents would be to follow Leon's advice and spot fix it. Then as you thought cover up with a layer of trim. I did a full bulkhead replacement in a previous boat. The inital cut to remove the old rotted one was probably one of the scariest steps I have ever taken. Damn, am I doing the right thing. I replaced one whole one and sistered in a replacement panel on the other side. I don't have the boat anymore but it is still sailing 7 years after this repair. Oh don't forget to stop the chain plate leak.

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