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new outboard motor

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gmcdent
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/02/2004 : 09:14:15

I need a new outboard for my 1983 Catalina 25.

Questions--Pros and cons of 2cycle vs 4 cycle. How much horsepower is too much? I have Johnson 7.5 hp sailmaster now and I think I should go a little larger. Is 15 hp too much or should I stay around 9 to 10?

Also where is the best place for cockpit controls? I thought the starboard side of the cockpit down close to the "floor". How far forward from the stern is best?

Thanks in advance for advice.

George C. on At Last

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2004 : 09:45:29

Your questions are among the most commonly asked question on the forum. Probably should set up a dedicated "outboard motors" section. :>) The search function will yield lots of threads...

That said, most discussion could be condensed to:

Two strokes are on the way out, mainly due to environmental concerns and legislation. Four-strokes are quieter, more fuel effecient. Get the four.

An 8 or 9.9 HP motor is plenty to drive the C25 to hull speed with reserve power.
The XL (25") shaft is a must. There's some debate over the value of the high thrust models, but in general that feature is preferred too.

Your short list of brands is Honda, Yamaha, Nissan (Tohatsu).

All are good motors... some owners have reported trouble with hard-starting on the new Hondas. This is related to the tiny size of the starting jet circuits and succeptibility to fuel contamination. With any of the 4-strokes maintaining clean 'pristine' fuel is important.

I don't think I've heard a negative word on Yamaha except for price, Nissan is a bit lighter than the others, their model has been out for a year now, I think so far the reports are very good on it.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2004 : 17:19:16

The yamaha 8 is available with power tilt. This might not make a diference to you but if your wife sails with you I can assure you that she will like it and feel more confident in her ability to come back and get you if you fall off. Or to leave at speed if you fall off. Which ever she feels like at the time. Fuel is a big problem with these engines. I tell our customers to drain the carb if they are going to leave it more than a week. Disconnect the fuel, run it until it quits, open the drain on the carb and allow the last couple of drops to run into a paper towel. I take about 4 or 5 small engine carbs apart each year to clean out bad fuel even at that. Its the alcohol thats causing the trouble as in other things. Dave

Edited by - on

rustynbigd
1st Mate

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31 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2004 : 20:59:13

I have a 2000 honda 9.9 with electric start and it is fantastic for my 25. Sips fuel and is rock reliable. I too am considering retrofitting with cockfit controls so I can actually watch as I try to dock by standing. Anyone ever do a retrofit like this?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2004 : 21:12:11

To support all of the above... The "mature" Honda and Yamaha 4-strokes are considerably heavier than equivalent 2-strokes, while the newer Nissan/Tohatsu is lighter than the Honda or Yamaha, but still heavier than a 2-stroke. All are susceptable to fuel problems, based on what I've seen at my boat club. (The Yamaha tech is there as many days as not, but there are more Yammies than Hondas, and no new Nissan 4-strokes--and no Nissan tech to go there. Honda and Yamaha both have "stuff" that might explain some of the weight difference--such as the 12 amp alternator on the Honda (compared to 6 on the others). Also, Nissan's "82 lb." weight is not for an extra-long with electric start. Those two items probably add 15-20 lbs. (They can't be weightless.)

I don't know whether there are any 2-strokes in production that offer 25+" shafts, which is a great advantage, unless you operate in flat water. With a 22" "long shaft" Honda, I found that I could lift the cooling intake out of the water by walking to the foredeck with nobody in the cockpit. Not good!

As for HP, the 4-stroke 8 hp models are enough to push you to hull speed at about half throttle--5.5 knot cruising speed requires less. The 9.9 Honda is the same engine as the 8 except for the price tag and its higher RPMs you'll absolutely never use. If you have no better way to waste that couple of boat units, I'll give you my address.

The High Thrust (or Power Thrust) option refers to a lower-pitch, larger diameter and sometimes 4-blade prop which provides better starting, stopping, and backing power fpr heavy boats. The downside is higher revs at cruising speed, which some have found raises fuel consumption. (I haven't motored enough real distances to notice.)

Regarding controls, you'll find that the Hondas and Yamahas have longer tiller handles and more convenient shifters--cockpit controls may be less important than you think. I like keeping the clutter out of the cockpit, but your mileage may vary.

Hope that helps a little..

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/06/2004 14:38:33

cvwall
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 08:07:05

Johnson (now owned by Bombardier) still has the Sailmaster 8hp 2-stroke with the XL shaft. My 1985 one is still going strong

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 17:14:55

When I bought Silver Girl back in 1983 she was rigged with an Evinrude electric start 2 cycle Yachtwin. 18 years later I replaced it for no particular reason other than I thought it was getting long in the tooth. I still keep it around in my garage since it always performed great and was very reliable.

I replaced it with a new leftover 1996 Johnson 2 cycle electric start Sailmaster which hasn't given me a lick of trouble except for a power pack which needed replacement this year. ( The two outboards are essentially the same except for the "improved" power pack) There's plenty of thrust and I do a lot of ocean sailing.

I like the simplicity and reliability of 2 cycle outboards so I haven't jumped on the 4 stroke bandwagon. As for fuel consumption and "pollution", I burn substantially less fuel in an entire season than a stinkpotter uses in an hour.

Unless I lived in a venue that banned 2 cycle engines, i'd stick with one.

Edited by - on

Lee T
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 18:10:32

Question on the comment above that Yahamas should be run out of gas if you plan to leave it for 1 week or more. I have heard this from my repair guy as well. But, I usually leave the boat for a week at a time all the time (from weekend to weekend). Does this mean I should run the engine out of fuel nearly every time I use it??

Thanks,

Lee

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 20:01:05

I run my 20 year old Mariner dry at every use. Enuff said.

Brooke

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 20:23:27

I bought osmepneo a new 9.9 Nissan 2 stroke last year - electric start and xls shaft. Very pleased with the iron genny. I figure for 6 gallons a year (max) I'll pollute - and then far less many other obs on the lake. I run the engin dry after each weekend sailing, don't think its a good idea to let the oil and gas sit all week or for two or three weeks if I can't get to the boat for awhile.
We had a crappy summer and lots of guys at the club sailed only two or three times all summer.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 21:02:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 "...Fuel is a big problem with these engines. I tell our customers to drain the carb if they are going to leave it more than a week. Disconnect the fuel, run it until it quits, open the drain on the carb and allow the last couple of drops to run into a paper towel..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know if I would want an engine that required running it dry and draining the carb after I was done using it...Wait a minute... Come to think about it, I wouldn't want an engine like this.

After use, I've never ran my engines dry or drained the carb in either my former 22 year old Johnson 9.9 2-stroke or my current 8 year old Mercury 8,...I simply just shut it off and wave goodbye until I see it again. I do the same for my lawnmower, truck, weedwacker, snowblower, former minibike, lawn edger, roto-tiller, minivan,...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2004 : 21:49:42

I agree with Don... A week or two should be no issue, from my experience. A couple of months might be... Run it dry before Winter storage or before a planned, prolonged absence. Otherwise, the issue is commonly overblown. For those of us in salt water, an occasional fresh water flush is more important.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2004 : 16:28:24

The problem is alcohol in the fuel. There seems to be great variations as to how much might be in it. I go along without any problems for a long time and then I drain the carb on something and get a very corrosive mix of water, alcohol and fuel. You guys are right most of the time a month or so doesn't really hurt but its amazing how often people I know hit three or four bad weekends in a row and then have a wedding, two funerals, a graduation, and an engine that won't go. Dave

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2004 : 12:00:21

As Dave says, the problem is ethanol, which in California's "boutique" gas formulation is 20% by volume. Other parts of the country with less stringent clean air laws are using 10%~15% formulations, or so I've heard. Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it wants to grab onto water molecules, so if you are located in any region where "oxygenated" (alcoholized) fuel has been mandated by that State's bureaucrats, you will have problems, especially on older outboards which may contain o-rings, gaskets, or internal fuel lines which are not chemically compatible with ethanol. The worst problem is the water vapor that the alcohol absorbs out of the air, it accelerates the formation of gum and varnish in the carburetor if left over long periods, and since boat fuel tanks vent directly to the atmosphere (unlike automotive fuel systems which are sealed), your boat's gas tank will get water condensing in it much more quickly than with the older gasoline formulations that didn't have oxygenation additives like alcohol and MTBE. Draining the carburetor float bowl when taking the motor out of service for more than a week is probably a good idea on ANY outboard nowadays, not just the new Hondas or Yamahas.

Another adverse side effect of the alcohol in the new gas formulations is that it cuts the available chemical energy of the fuel. I've been hearing more and more complaints from people buying new cars (in California) that they are getting as much as 25% worse fuel ecomomy than the EPA sticker on the car says it's supposed to get. I guess you wouldn't really notice it in a sailboat, since most of us use no more than 2 or 3 tankfuls in a season, if even that much.

Edited by - lcharlot on 12/05/2004 12:07:05

Lee T
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2004 : 13:35:29

Very interesting, thanks for that post. I'm wondering if it helps or hurts to get 91 octance gas vs. 89 vs. 87? Also, Yahama and other brands sell a "fuel stabilizer" - do you think this will effectively extend the "lifespan" of gas aboard our boats?

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2004 : 20:14:07

Fuel stabilizers do retard the separation of gas into its components which help it last longer before it goes stale and causes engine damage, but I have a question about the use of oxygenators in gasoline.

If one gets 25% lower mileage in their car and therefore consumes 25% more fuel to go the same distance; doesn't that result in the same or more pollution than one would produce with non oxygenated fuel?

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2004 : 21:49:41

Higher octane gas has a lower heat content / lb. than regular. Its also generally harder to light. The net result is that low compression engines may not start on it at all if conditions are marginal (cold, low crank speed, weak spark, etc.) Also the higher the octane rating the higher,in general, the alcohol content. Thats why race cars run on alky. Its not efficient just effective. Fuel stabilizers do seem to work well but they only stabilize the fuel in the tank and line where air is very limited. The carb still needs to be drained cause the amount of fuel is small and the air is right there to provide both water and oxygen. I'm amazed at fuel injected vehicles (fuel system completely closed to outside air) that will start after a 6 to 9 month shut down like they were run yesterday. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 12/05/2004 21:55:34

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2004 : 11:11:01

Old Salt: You have made the point I have thought of for years. When I use "oxygenated" fuel here in WA (which is somewhat cheaper at certain 'convenience stores", etc., it is a bit cheaper than Chevron, etc., but my mileage drops considerably. Hence, no ARCO for me any more. My Mitsubishi Mirage gets over 40 MPG all the time, but with ARCO or other "oxygenated fuels", I typically can expect about 36 MPG. I think you are right on.....

Gary B.
Encore! #685

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2004 : 17:06:25

Although the newer Hondas have a problem with rough (or no) idling when a little water or dirt fouls the very fine idle jet, its a very simple 2 minute job to remove the jet and clear it. I've even done it on the water. I have to do it a couple of times per year, usually after motoring in very rough conditions, or after a lot of rain. A little B12 Chemtool does the job.

I never drain the carb and run it dry. I think it starts easier and runs better cold when you don't do this. Also, for some reason, the motor seems to start easier on the way home after a day of sailing when you DON'T tip it up all the way out of the water. I think radically tilting the motor may make it a little prone to flooding.

Besides the idle jet non-problem, the motor is very reliable and I run my 8 HP, 8 year old Honda 200 days per year (thousands of miles).

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2004 : 19:09:54

Jim, if these guys were running 200 days per year they would not have problems either. Once a week is enough to make the whole discussion irrelevant. Dave

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2004 : 21:18:44

I agree with Jim on not tipping the engine more than necessary... I find that when I tip it substantially for sailing, it takes longer to start. Often while day-sailing to nowhere, I leave it in the water and in neutral--not much different from an inboard with a fixed prop, and it starts instantaneously with a touch of the button. In the slip with the bracket up, I tip it one notch to get the skeg about 2" above the water.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2004 : 13:02:28

I have a '93 Johnson xtr long shaft alternator mod. electric start. Have had it since new...never a problem...ran it dry... left it wet.The only apparent difference in the two techniques is that removing the fuel line to run it dry increased the wear and tear on the fuel line appurtenances. I sail daily weather permitting. This occured in a little over one season. And so I stopped doing it. Fuel line ends lasted till now...10+ years later. Then New York switched from MTBE to ethanol and I made the mistake of mixing half a tank of the MTBE fuel with a new dose of ethanol enriched fuel. It was an apparent no-no...mucho problemo...drained the tank and carb bowl and replaced it with ethanol/gas fuel and have had no problem since(NOCK NOCK)( ON WOOD)

Ive since used the left over fuel in other two stroke land machines with good results.

Val on the hard DAGANBIT

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2004 : 21:36:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 ...increased the wear and tear on the fuel line appurtenances. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Val: You sent me to my Shakespeare dictionary with that one!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/07/2004 21:40:19

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