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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

I would like some feedback

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/08/2004 : 19:51:49

I am thinking about building a 25 or 26 foot trailerable trimaran that is designed for a couple to cruise on rather than optimized for racing. It would be about 30 x 8 1/2 on the trailer, 25+ x 20 in the water, would weight >2000 lbs empty, 3000 full load, normal towing weight >4000 lbs and would feature a nice cockpit with walk through stern, a decent galley with reasonable counterspace and 72 inch headroom, cooler under the cockpit, seating for four in the main cabin, and a real double berth with good shoulder and foot room, head under the rear of the berth, slide out to use with curtain.
Outboard aux. power, 30 gallon water, 6 gallon fuel
Can be put into a regular slip with no time or maintence concerns.
Hydraulicly controled kick up centerboard and rudder 12 inch draft foils up.
Would launch on any ramp with no axle wetting.
Mast raising gear built in for one person to do with no strain.
Rotating mast, full batten rig.
Performance expected 9+ knots to windward, mid teens reaching, and of course no pitching or rolling.
Current estimates are $50,000 for base, but complete to ready to sail, boat so I know its generally much more expensive than Cat 25's however tell me what you think.
Dave

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 20:47:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 I am thinking about building a 25 or 26 foot trailerable trimaran that is designed for a couple to cruise on rather than optimized for racing...Current estimates are $50,000 for base, but complete to ready to sail, boat so I know its generally much more expensive than Cat 25's however tell me what you think.
Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm...Designing and building a trimaran? That is very ambitious.

I would be inclined to pick up a Corsair F-27. It would save you some money and a whole lotta time!

I really like the multihulls. At my marina, there is one Corsair and a few Stilletto's.

Edited by - dlucier on 12/08/2004 20:53:21

Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 21:09:09

Sorry I wasn't clear, this would be a production boat to be series built ( I hope to do 5 or 6 the first year) and designed to be a good cruiser instead of a race boat with a couple of berths like an F-27. Dave

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 22:26:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 Sorry I wasn't clear, this would be a production boat to be series built ( I hope to do 5 or 6 the first year) and designed to be a good cruiser instead of a race boat with a couple of berths like an F-27. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know if you could use the terms "trailerable trimaran" and "good cruiser" in the same sentence.

I would think that anyone wanting a cruiser in the $50k-$70K range will probably want more creature comforts than can be supplied in the limited volume of a trailerable trimaran hull due to the need to keep the boat at 8ft for trailerability (the primary hull has to be narrower than 8ft to accommodate the folding appendages.)

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 23:47:21

multi-hulls have been popular for many years in Australia and the UK. Only recently, has North America caught onto the advantages...therefore, I would suggest sourcing info in Aus and the UK.
My next boat will be a 34 or 34+ catamaran. From what I've seen, a catamaran is gaining acceptance here, whereas trimarans remain on the fringe.

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takokichi
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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 10:26:28

I agree with the thought that at the price point you mention your cruising sailors are going to want more creature comforts than your hull volume will support. I think you need to sell a multihull in this size/price range on performance first.

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Gloss
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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:44:30

I can't imagine bringing a boat like you are describing for less than about 500k start up costs. (probably like about a mil) Got deep pockets?

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 21:25:27

Its interesting that while 90+ % of the boats in any marina are monohull ( 1/2 cat) the boats we see underway are probably 25 % multihulls of one sort (cats) or another (cat and a 1/2). This is especially true around the Fl Keys. Dave

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 21:25:29

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/10/2004 : 00:18:29

Dave,
I took a test sail on a Cosar 27 about 3 years ago and have been in love with them since. I have the farrier marine binder with all the poop on building, saw their latest design for a 32 home build boat the other day. They all look great to me. A couple of years ago Renalds (sp) came up with a similar size tri, they have a production cat crusier, but haven't seen any more on that one.
Do you have plans now or are you making them yourself. As stated earlier this would be a high $$ start up. If you got the bucks I'd say go with it, If I had tons of money I'd love to invest. I take it you are in Fl Keys.

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2004 : 08:19:08

Matt,
Actually mid-atlantic coast. Everyone I know who has sailed on multihulls seems to have the same reaction. They spend the rest of their time planning how to aquire one of the expensive things. There are a ton of race oriented trailer tris out there and I think its time to design one that gives up the last 1/2 knot to have resonable usable accomadations. An F-27 for example has a double berth forward that is less than 42 inches at the shoulder, do you sleep stacked up.
You really can't trailer a cat and the cruising cats have a lot of wave clearance issues. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 12/10/2004 20:18:22

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2004 : 18:59:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 ...There are a ton of race oriented trailer tris out there and I think its time to design one that gives up the last 1/2 knot to have resonable usable accomadations. An F-27 for example has a double berth forward that is less than 42 inches at the shoulder, do you sleep stacked up...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Have you seen the doghouse opening behind the companionway steps you have to crawl through to get into the aft double berth on the Corsair F-31?

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2004 : 20:16:31

Yes Don,
I've worked on one and lived on one ( F-31) for several weeks of cruising. Thats one of the reasons that I think that I can do better. I have also spent a fair amount of time on an F-27. I have also made major modifications to these boats and have spent my whole misguided life designing and building boats. I love the performance and the ride is really magic carpet.
For example Bahia Honda to Key West sailing all the way, out of one Harbor and into the other. GPS distance 45 Nautical miles. Time three hours flat. Wind south 15 building to 20 + by Key West. Passed 6 monohulls that were laboring heavily and rolling most dismally. Big seas. Was past by one sport fisherman about 45 ft. so balled up in spray that we could hardly see the boat. We left B. H. with two SS pans on a litle Forespar gas stove (like in the above picture) with no fiddles, clamps, or anything. They were still there in Key West.
Later coming back from the Marqueasas (the next key west of K. W.) wind absolutely on the nose at about 15 K we stayed dead even with a 40+ ft trawler for the entire 15 mile trip, We would pass about 50 ft behind his stern on each tack though we sometimes had to bear off to do it. He was hooked up too doing at least 8.5 Ks. when we rounded the sea bouy and could bear off to go up the harbor we blew by him at about 18 Kts. This trip jib and single reefed main.
Ever since that trip I've been trying to figure out how to get one of my own. Since I've been designing and building boats since the 60's I think that I have decided that there are enough other people that might share my ideas to try it. The women love these boats cause they are so comforable to sail and thats a help. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 12/10/2004 20:25:15

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 08:21:48

Hey Dave,
I do hope that you can design and build a boat that you describe.
If I win the powerball tonight, I'll be one of your first investors.
Big time generous of me to offer, huh?

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 12:43:00

You have sure come to the right forum when you start a post with "I would like some feedback." We are certainly not short of good ideas or providing good feedback! It's one of the things that make this an interesting forum.

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Ed Montague
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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 00:38:33

Dave, My brother just purchased a used F-24. It may be very fast but definately cramped below. One of the interesting features is a full marine head, the problem is that you need to take the V berth apart to use it. Not too many women would find this exceptable on a cruising comfortable boat. I know that it wouldn't work for my admiral. This little beauty cost him $30K. If you can build a comfortable cruising tri or cat that retains some style and speed for $50K you won't have any problem selling them and if you can build it to be trailerable, people will be beating your door down to get one.

In order to get any kind of beam on the main hull, the almas will need to either fold up over the main hull somehow or be removeable. Maybe if we all put our heads together one of us will solve this problem.

I will be watching Cruising World for your first review.

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 23:12:10

If you want to go sailing, buy a sailboat. If you like building boats, build a boat. But if you want to go sailing, don't build a boat.

This is true with boats, homebuilt aircraft, and kit cars.

It will take you forever, it will not sail well, and it will have minimal resale value. The only thing that is anywhere near to rational is to buy an older beat up Farrier or Corsar and fix it up.

BTW: Farrier and Corsar are fine for fun, but too small for crusing. Larger multihulls are great for crusing long distance, but not weekends. The larger multihulls are downwind boats, they don't point worth a darn. Long distance crusing is a down wind (tradewinds) affair. Gentlemen never sail to weather.

Greg

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 01:13:37

Greg,
I think that the point is Dave is not a home builder, but is planning on a real production run.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 19:54:58

While waiting at the Dentist office today, I took an old Cruising World magazine to browse because I don't particularly care to read a vintage NewsWeek or Time, and when they call my name, I donate it to their magazine rack to freshen it up. As I perused the pages, I came across an advertisement for a trailerable cruising trimaran that appears to be more cruiser friendly than the aforementioned Corsair's.

The boat was a Telstar 28 by [url="http://www.performancecruising.com/"]Performance Cruising[/url].

It has more headroom than the F-27 and is favorably reviewed by [url="http://www.performancecruising.com/PDF/Practical_Sailor_Telstar.pdf"]Practical Sailor[/url].

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Dave Laux
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 20:37:13

The other thing that I think about cruising boats is that it's not all at important how much room there is in the boat. What is important is whether or not the equipment that is there can be used safely, efficiently, and comfortably. The actual amount of stuff that is stored on and used on the boat is fairly small. We, Donna and I, only carry about 600 pounds of stuff for our six-week trips to Canada. This includes food, clothing, and hobby supplies.
The galley needs good counter space, an efficient stove, and for me a double sink so that dishwashing can be done without drying dishes. I find that they dry themselves.
A double berth needs about 54 inches of width at the shoulders and about 30 inches of width at the foot.
The head needs to be usable without changes in the rest of the boat.
The cockpit seats and the deck layout need to be such that both the skipper and the crew feel comfortable when relaxing and working the boat as needed.
There need to be comfortable seats for the normal number of people on the boat that can be used in inclement weather. This seats needed to need to have structure around them so that positions can be changed. They need to have good reading lights.
The exterior of the boat, particularly the cockpit, needs to have coved corners and smooth surfaces so that it can be kept clean with a minimum of trouble.
If something needs to be put on the boat that isn't trouble-free and likely to give good long-term service you are doing it wrong.
If there isn't space for the equipment on the boat to be used comfortably then you should either eliminate the equipment or make the boat bigger.
Trimaran's inherently have relatively limited interior space, they make up for this somewhat by having very generous exterior spaces. They also have large amounts of storage volume for low density materials in the amas. Dave

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2004 : 07:50:40

Don,
I saw one at the Annapolis show this fall and thought that, unlike most trimerans, it had too many obstructions to close to the water to be a good sailing boat. It also had almost no internal storage volume in the main hull. Dave

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2004 : 12:56:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 Don,
I saw one at the Annapolis show this fall and thought that, unlike most trimerans, it had too many obstructions to close to the water to be a good sailing boat. It also had almost no internal storage volume in the main hull. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

I thought what makes a trimaran a trimaran was a narrowed main hull, particularly below the waterline, which means sacrificing internal storage? Additionally, I would think that the trailerability requirement would cut down on internal storage volume too.

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2004 : 15:22:01

Try this forum,
lot of cool stuff, and if you want to follow a soap opera they have that too.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12

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