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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Fin to Wing Conversion

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Bruce Ebling
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/21/2004 : 22:36:38

The subject of converting a fin keel to wing came up again the other day. Does anyone know whether the conversion can be only done to a swing keel or can a fin be converted as well?

Bruce Ebling
1989 WK "Selah"

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2004 : 22:49:08

The conversion kit that's being sold is specific to the swinger....

I reckon with some engineering to maintain proper balance and righting moment (& etc), you could cut your fin keel off and bolt on some lead wings... you can get custom cast wings & torpedos from Mars casting. http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html

I saw a web article somewhere on doing this sort of thing... not on a C25 though.
Worth it? Dunno.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2004 : 10:28:33

I asked about this before and learned that there is no way the wing keel retrofit can be put on a fin. Its designed to fit into the keel trunk. Why would you want to, just to lose 1 foot and 1 inch of draft? If you have a fin and want to trailer, it can be done. Just you won't be doing it often. Get a longer trailer tounge extension or use the rope system.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2004 : 18:10:51

Rather than mess with the trailer...put it in a wet slip and leave it...you'll love it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2004 : 19:02:08

I guess the question is, "Why?" According to your signature, you already have one.

I doubt that cutting the fin would work--I think it'd be shorter fore-to-aft than the real wing (less lateral resistance), and if it's cast iron, the cutting job would be immense. If it's glass-encased lead (about '83 on), I don't know what shape and structure you're going to find under the glass, which is quite thick.

If you wanted to go fin-to-wing, you might want to call Catalina. They might still have the mold for the bolt-on wing used in '89-90, and might also have an opinion on whether that would work on the stub for the fin keel. If it were me, and I needed a wing, I'd sell the boat with the fin and buy one with a wing

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/22/2004 19:06:22

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2004 : 20:23:07

Hey you guys, hold your horses, I was just asking:-) I am in no way going to convert my boat. I had just heard through the grapevine that someone had called the factory and said it was possible to do the swap. I did not think that you could, so I posted it for all of you knowledgeable folks to give me the low down. Simple question deserves a simple answer, yes or no. I have always wondered why this was never offered, seems like a "unbolt the old and install new" sort of thing. I guess Catalina never made the wing with the same bolt pattern and matching stub to do the conversion.
Bruce Ebling
1989 WK "Selah"

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2004 : 21:42:56

"...I doubt that cutting the fin would work..."

Quite doable with the 'right stuff'. (tools not likely to be found in your garage)

Other folks have done these conversions on much bigger boats... totally agree that it's of questionable value on a C25.

Not for the faint of heart either... one of the DIY articles I read had the owner cutting the bottom off his lead keel with a chainsaw. He didn't know if it would work when he started (luckily it did).

IMHO Big cojones to take a chainsaw to your boat.

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2004 : 10:14:58

Hi Bruce,

The factory wing keel is mounted to a "stub" on the bottom of the Hull. Just like the fin. The conversion kit for the swinger is different because it is designed to insert into the swing keel cavity because there is no stub..

My guess is that you could convert the fin keel model. You would use the factory wing with a matching keel bolt pattern to install on the stub where the fin was.

The retrofit kit is a different animal.

I sure wish I had bought your previous boat

. She was a beauty

.

Merry Christmas,

PW

Edited by - pwhallon on 12/24/2004 09:08:17

Jeff Howe
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2004 : 18:15:39

Well here goes.... I just talked to Catalina (technical support). They weren't as helpful as I had hoped, but some good information none the less. The wing keel will bolt to where the fin came off of. You would need to fill the holes and re-drill to match the bolt pattern that is on the new wings they have in stock. They sell wing keels for $0.75 per pound. Then you can resell the used fin keel lead for up to $0.25 per pound. I don't own a Cat25 (yet), so I don't really know, and I really confused the girl at Catalina, when I was asking if the new wing would bolt directly to the "keel stub". I would need some assistance here, is there a stub (which would form the bilge inside the boat) where the keel bolts to?? Or does the fin keel bolt directly to the hull?? She said it bolts directly to the hull, but reading the previous message, it bolts to a stub...I'm stopping here and will continue researching...

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2004 : 08:45:23

Jeff,
All of the hulls, except the ones with swing keels, had keel stubs molded as part of the GRP hull. That stub would match with both the wing and fin keels from the same production series of boats. The only difference is what there would be from mold shrinkage and they could be faired out. Dave

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2004 : 09:10:35

Hey Bruce,

oops, I meant to use the pretty girl smile regarding your previous boat..............not the clown face.

No insult intended. I clicked the wrong face.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2004 : 10:31:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Ebling
 Hey you guys, hold your horses... Simple question deserves a simple answer, yes or no.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bruce: You should know better than that around here!

But regarding chain saws

, none I know of will get through that hunk of cast iron, and if it could get through the lead, it'd be an environmental disaster. And I doubt that the resulting keel (with wing added) would have the right dimensions. It sounds like Catalina has the solution, if anyone really wants it.

Merry Christmas (or whatever your chosen holiday)!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2004 : 14:01:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...But regarding chain saws

, none I know of will get through that hunk of cast iron, and if it could get through the lead, it'd be an environmental disaster...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The website provided by Bruce has an article which shows someone taking a chainsaw to their keel.

Additionally, a while ago, I believe Cruising World had an article about converting to a shoal draft keel and they used a chainsaw too.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2004 : 12:14:13

Nah, Don... Photographic evidence and real life experience aren't going to change my opinion on that!

Get the right keel or get another boat. Don't fill the boatyard with lead dust.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2004 : 15:10:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Nah, Don... Photographic evidence and real life experience aren't going to change my opinion on that!

Get the right keel or get another boat. Don't fill the boatyard with lead dust.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And he's wearing a short sleeve shirt to boot.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2004 : 23:16:33

Lead is essentially inert, it is the parent Uranium you want to avoid! I've been plying with lead most of my life and it has had no effect on me.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2004 : 12:16:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Lead is essentially inert...it has had no effect on me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmmmmm... I guess we can go back to lead-based paint, lead in our gasoline, molded led toys, lead bird-shot,... and not worry about what they used to call "lead poisoning."

Edited by - on

Jeff Howe
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:56:47

I still have been researching whether this will work or not....
I contacted the company listed above, Mars Metals, and requested a quote on chain sawing the keel off by one foot and adding a bulb. Well they are pretty proud of their keel bulbs...and by the pictures, they should be. To cut a foot of draft off the fin keel and adding the Mars Metals Torpedo Bulb would be approximately $1770.00 for the bulb halves and shipping to Oregon approx. $530.00. So to reduce the draft of the fin to 3 feet with the bulb would be approx. $2300.00. I looked at the potential boat this weekend, a '87 FK, and looked very closely at the bolt pattern of the keel and will be calling Catalina to see if they would match. The wing from CY would still be the best fix for too much draft...still searching for the right Cat...

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:16:42

What about the converse.....Can you swap a wing for a fin????

I know stupid question, but had to ask...

Edited by - on

Jeff Howe
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 14:53:54

I received a line drawing of the wing keel from Catalina. The bolt pattern is different from original. The original keel is one, two, two, one...the new (replacement keel) has six bolts in-line. Which I feel is not the right way to do a keel bolt pattern. The bolts' leverage on the keel, and the hull, is reduced if in-line. Setting the bolts across the width of the keel gives more leverage to hold the keel in place....which would be a good thing....more research needed, or possibly hold out for a WK boat to come my way....

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 22:39:10

Jeff: How wide is the top surface of the keel? Once the bolts snug the keel top to the mounting stub, that surface alone probably provides the stability you need. The strength of the stub is going to be the primary factor--regardless of the position of the bolts. Catalina has been doing this for a while, and to more than a few boats.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 14:06:06

Jeff,

The retrofit wing and its six bolts in a row work well helped along by this keel being fitted up into the keel trunk of the swings configuration. Not a butt match like the newer wings butting surfaces. My retrofit has worked well for me...6/7 years or so. Like a ROCK.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 15:22:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 The retrofit wing and its six bolts in a row work well helped along by this keel being fitted up into the keel trunk of the swings configuration. Not a butt match like the newer wings butting surfaces. My retrofit has worked well for me...6/7 years or so. Like a ROCK.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Val: Jeff and Bruce are exploring doing it to a fin, which means the keel will bolt to the keel stub the same way the fin does--not up inside the swing keel trunk. I assume the keel Catalina is offering for that is the OEM keel for the C-25 wing--a different casting from the retrofit unit.

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