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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

The Keel Questions again

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clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/18/2005 : 18:55:10

Its time to start ordering parts for my swing keel. I need to replace the eyebolt that hooks to my keel, But I am afraid it looks bad. Very rusty. In a past past thread Frank H you were in the same pickle. What did you do.
Clay

Kamalla 1980 C25 SK/TR

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2005 : 21:14:32

Hi Clay
My keel eye did not look bad and was too difficult for me to break loose. I tend to over buy stuff. When I got my cable and ball I went ahead and bought the new super eye from CD just because. When the old eye would not come loose without endangering my ability to sail I blew it off for some time in the future. There were many valuable ideas on how to break it loose with "a tourch" being the most realistic, but all of them came with the caveat that if it just breaks off you will need to be ready for plan B. Scared me! I figured that with a keel eye that was fine and my only impetus the desire to have the new fangled one I would... do nothing.

So, have you tried to remove yours? You may want to begin the "breaking loose oil regimen" now. Take pictues along the way, we need this tech event documented!

Good job on reading old threads, they really helped me when I got my boat.

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 00:30:47

I had the same dilemma. I tried heat, oil, force and finally went to the boat yard. They tried all the same and pronounced the bolt "stuck". Nobody wanted to risk applying enough force to test which part would last the longest so we all said good enough and left it alone. According to the Catalina Direct parts book the purpose of the replacement part was to prohibit the potential for the bolt to rotate and fall out. Unlikely scenario in this case.

One difference was that there were no signs of rust on the part. In your case it sounds like it might be failing and need to be replaced. I would be tempted to let the boat yard have a look. They may have just the right tool and the right touch to get it out without breaking which might save you a lot of frustration in the long run. In my case with the boat on the trailer they only charged me 1/2 hour of labor to give it a try.

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 09:22:08

I had the same problem with a "stuck" eyebolt. But mine was a slightly bent eyebolt - which, as we all know, eventually breaks. So, on a cold spring morning I put a three foot "cheater bar" on a tight fitting wrench handle - applied plenty of propane heat to the keel area around where the eyebolt shank would be (and slightly below it) - careful not to apply heat to the eyebolt itself - and when the keel got good and hot - applied gentle, steady pressure to the cheater bar until the eyebolt began too loosen.
Sometimes those eyebolts are installed with "red" permatex threadlocker. If so, it takes 500 degree heat to make it soft enough to let go.
No guarantees - but it worked for me.

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 14:00:45

I have been trying to post a couple of pic most of the morning but I cant even get them on my computer. But as I look at them I know somehow it has to come out. The Low amount of advice scares me as well. I live in orem Utah so the baot yard thing is out. The parts dept in these boat stores mostly cary "cool" wake board stuff. None of them I called a few months ago had ever heard of Cetol. But Mark you gave me hope. I have been applying stuff like WD40 and last night, at the advise of a friend of mine I applied some PB Breaker. So far I haven't put a wrench to it. I think tonight I will heat the Keel up and apply more stuff. Then this weekend give it a try. I still want to post a pic or two and one of my turning ball. The lack of maintenance is appaling. The PO didnt seem to have read this forum or heed the great advice givin here. I am sure glad I have Thanks again
ClayC

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 14:36:12

let me try http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5df01b3127cce9e8da878ee1700000016108BcMm7Jqzb0

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 14:59:36

Hi Clay,

I looked at your photo and it has really got me thinking ... mine doesn't have a large ring like that ... I wonder if a PO replaced the one on my keel.

Does anyone know if all the old keel attachment points look like this?

edit: OK ... I found a photo that shows the keel attachment point on my keel ... here it is:

Does it look like the original attachment point has been replaced?

Edited by - Buzz Maring on 01/20/2005 15:11:51

familysailor
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 15:24:49

Hey Clay, I am just down the road in Provo. I would be glad to help if you would like it. There are also several sources for sail boat parts and information in the area, though you have to go to SLC to find them. West Marine on 72nd south has a lot of sailing hardware and Sids Sports in SLC is a Catalina dealer. They have been good to work with. Let me know if I can do anything for you.

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 15:32:22

Absolutely NOT - Yikes!!! ... Buzz, your second photo (the one with the tape measure) is the original eyebolt. The first picture, with the rusty "ring" isn't Catalina's doing at all. After it comes out the threads, inside the keel itself, need to be inspected carefully and considered before proceeding.

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 15:50:55

Yipi!! sounds like I have more of a problem than just getting it out. But I guess its best to find out now and Fix it rather than staring at a broken bolt wondering what went wrong.

I will be in touch Russ, Thanks

Clay C

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2005 : 17:40:33

The original eyebolts often sheared at the keel requiring that the stub be drilled out and replaced with the updated version which wasn't an eyebolt at all. It was a U shaped stainless device that had the cable end sit inside it and secured with a clevis pin. It also was screwed into the keel where the eyebolt was.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 19:56:14

well after a couple of weeks of spraying penatrating oil and a very hot keel........ I broke the damn thing off. I guess is drill and Easy Out. Does any one know how to get a little more room between the keeland hull? maybe its time to shop for a Drimmel.

Clay C

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 21:02:24

Dunno if a Dremel will have enough whoopie... a regular 1/4" drill should work. An angle-head drill will require a lot less clearance. You may be able to rent one if you don't have one in the shop.

Be sure to get some good American or European made drill bits... stainless will eat the cheap knock-offs for breakfast. Left-handed bits may also help the extraction process along.

If you have an EZ-loader trailer, jacking up the aft end of the boat is very easy... Lay a timber across the frame rails and put a jack under each of the lower end of the aft roller sets. They will pivot up and lift the hull neatly. (at least they did for me). That should give you enough clearance to get a drill in there.

Be sure to put plenty of "Never-Sieze" on the threads when you're putting things back together.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 21:43:14

Clay,

First, let me say I'm very sorry to hear about this mess you've "inherited", and how badly it's going for you.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> well after a couple of weeks of spraying penatrating oil and a very hot keel........ I broke the damn thing off. I guess is drill and Easy Out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Don't get your hopes up. Easy-Outs, or more generic bolt extractors, work best on bolts with healthy threads that have been broken off by over torquing, or overloading in service. They don't work worth a damn on frozen threads. As a former professional mechanic, I've repaired more broken bolt situations than I want to remember.

Here are my suggestions for attacking a large sheered steel bolt with frozen threads.

Keep applying the penetrating oil -- can't hurt, might help.

When you start drilling out the broken stub, be absolutely certain that you are drilling down the exact centerline. I can not overemphasize how important the alignment of that first pilot hole is. There are two separate problems here. The first is locating and center-punching the exact center of the sheered face. The second (and more difficult) is making sure the pilot drill stays in the center of the bolt as you drill the length of the embedded part. You might start by using a right angle grinder to enlarge the notch in the keel and clean up the broken end of the bolt. Try real hard to ascertain or visualize the orientation of the tapped hole in the keel.

If you can drill the centerline accurately, then you can go up in drill sizes until there's nothing left in the hole but a brittle coil spring of rusty old male threads. If you get that lucky, the spiral of threads can be teased out with a heavy duty version of a right-angle dental pick.

Much more likely, one of your larger drillbits will end up breaking out on one side of the bolt. At that point, you need to stop and see how far off center you are. If you're real close to having followed the centerline, you may be able to slightly collapse the remains of the bolt by using a tiny punch to drive the "top" of the thick side towards the center of the hole. If this works even a little bit, sometimes the shrunken and distorted stub can then be unscrewed using an Easy-Out (gently!), a tiny sharp punch to drive it in a circle, or maybe sturdy needle-nosed pliers. You gotta be ready to wing it at that point.

What ever you do, DO NOT be tempted to run a tap down into a hole that still contains any significant fragments of the old bolt! If you do, the tap is certain to snag the fragments, start them rotating in the hole, and lock up the tap just like a twist-lock paint roller handle or tiller extension. Once this happens, there is almost no chance of avoiding the tap breaking off in the hole. If you thought getting the rusty mild carbon steel bolt out was a headache, you ain't seen aggrevation yet!

Once you've damaged or destroyed the original female threads in the keel, but got all of the bolt out, you have a few options to choose from.
<ul>
<li>Installing a stainless steel Heli-Coil thread insert,</li>
<li>Installing some other, larger tubular stainless steel threaded insert,</li>
<li>Drilling and tapping deeper into the keel,</li>
<li>Drilling all the way out the other side of the keel and using a nut on the end of a very long bolt or threaded rod.</li>
</ul>
I'd suggest the "drilling and tapping deeper into the keel" option. If you're going back together with the new improved cable attachment hardware, you're free to use as long a stainless steel allenhead bolt as you can find (or special order).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Does any one know how to get a little more room between the keel and hull?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you're on a trailer, you could try raising the boat by adding blocking between the hull and the trailer, such as chunks of railroad tie (of you have rollers), or huge thick chunks of styrofoam (if you have bunks). Or you could try lowering the keel by removing whatever part of the trailer is in the way, and maybe even digging a hole under the trailer for the keel.

If you're blocked up in a marina, get them to help you gain clearance, or even remove the keel altogether.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">maybe its time to shop for a Drimmel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">(Check your spelling before typing that into a search engine.

) If you've ever fancied you might have any hidden natural talent as a dentist, this might be a good time to find out. Also, if you discover you've drilled off the centerline before you trash the female threads, you might be able to use a small stone or carbide burr in a Dremel type die grinder to realign the hole before continuing to drill larger.

I hope some of that helps, or gives you an idea that helps. I don't envy your situation. When I removed the old-style eye-bolt from my swing keel, I thought sure I would end up breaking it before it started turning. I was tremendously relieved after it turned far enough, and smoothly enough, that I could be sure it wasn't twisting off. When I got it out, I discovered that both the male and female treads were totally coated with red (permanent) Loc-Tite.

I reinstalled my new stainless steel allen bolt with way too much polysulfide sealant. I tighten the bolt very slowly, alowing the trapped air and goo to ooze past the threads. Then I use a torque wrench for final tighening. That helps keep saltwater away from the SS threads, and I can easily remove it every couple of years and replace it with a new one.

Good luck!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2005 : 22:31:21

yuck!
I have an EZ loader trailer maybe if I slide the boat forword a bit I can drop the keel to the ground. Thanks so much for the advice, I will let you all know How it goes.

Clay C

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