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Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/03/2005 : 20:27:15

OK.

So I'm going to follow everybody's advice and have the boat I'm looking to buy surveyed. Everyone says not to sign a final offer sheet prior to the survey, but I have a few questions regarding the process:

1. How can I insure that the boat doesn't get sold out from under me during the whole process?

2. Do I put a deposit down, sign a contract and make sure the words "subject to survey" appear? Do I place a deposit without signing anything?

3. What kind of negotiating power do I have through the process other than the knowlege that it's much easier to buy a boat than to sell one?

4. How strict should I be with a broker who doesn't know the answers to some basic questions (like is the genoa a 135 or 150, sails were in the owner's garage when I looked at the boat)?

5. Can I insist on speaking directly with the owner to get a complete inventory?

6. Somebody advised me that I should try to work out the contract so that if the boat fails the inspection, the owner would cover the cost of the survey. This seems impossible, or is it?

I've never done this before.

-Rich.

Rich

Cerberus
Hull #4695
1984 SR/FK No Pop-Top

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 20:36:19

Here's a wonderful link for you to read about the (serious) boat buying process...

http://www.sleepingwithoars.com/new_page_2.htm

Be sure to browse and bookmark the site, it's very well put together and informative at the same time. Insipriational in fact!

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 21:02:21

Tell the broker you want to know the sail size. In fact, you should demand to see the sails, as they are a substantial percentage of the cost of the vessel if they need to be replaced. (You wouldn't proceed if you couldn't see the engine right?) Also insist on receiving an inventory sheet before you proceed. Sometimes things that were on the boat and considered by you to be staying disappear by the time you take delivery.

If the above is complied with to your satisfaction, submit an offer in writing, and include the words "subject to survey and sea trial" Give a deposit, the broker will give you a receipt. They generally do not cash the check unless the seller accepts the offer.

If there is acceptance, immediately or after some back and forth, you will receive a copy of the contract signed by the seller, and the broker will cash the check and put the funds in escrow. You then have a specified number of days to have the survey done. (Usually stipulated in the contract.)Everything should be with the boat and accessible to the surveyor at this time, including the sails, and everything on the inventory list. If the survey reveals substantial defects, you have the right to walk away, or you can negotiate with the seller about fixing or reducing the price.

Generally sellers do not pay for survey's, as it leaves them open to lot's of people walking away, as no boat is perfect. If the buyer has to pay, he will ususally only proceed if he is serious.

I am not a lawyer, and the above is by no means the answer to every question. But it's the way I've always done it.

There is also a lot of good information on the BoatUS site.

Good luck,

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 01/03/2005 21:04:37

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 22:25:24

I bought my 25 through a broker, and sold my 22 through a broker. In my opinion, it's the best way to go. First of all, the broker will have a contract which protects everybody. Typically you give an offer with a 10% deposit. That entitles you to have a survey done, paid by you, and can renegotiate, or cancel the contract and get your money back based on the results of the survey. And, here's the good part, you are the sole judge of the results of the survey. The owner cannot, in the meantime, sell the boat. You are responsible for the haul out costs and the survey costs. The survey is yours, you own it. You do not have to give a copy to the owner, or broker. The owner is not obligated to talk to you if he doesn't want to. The owner of my 25 didn't want to talk to me. That was OK, as I put any and all contingincies and what was included in the price in the contract that I wanted to. I also dropped the price based on the results of the survey. He could either take it, or leave it. If he leaves it, you get your deposit back. But you do have to have a survey done.
When I sold my 22 I didn't talk to the new owner. After the deal was made I told the broker that it was OK for the owner to call me. He did a couple of times and I helped him out by answering questions, he really appreciated that.
I hope that this helps you out.
The key here is to have the standard contract used by the yacht brokers association. It pretty well spells out who does what. It is fair,
Of course I'm a fair guy, and naturally, not a lawyer.

When I do sell my 25 someday, I'll use a broker, except if it is to a member of this association, and not be afraid to go through a broker to find my next boat.
Hope this helps.
Good luck

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2005 : 15:05:31

Lots of good advice here. One key point (and I purchased my latest Catalina thru a broker and sold my latest Catalina without one), is that aboslutely everything is negotable and can be changed as desired by one of the parties. All my negotiations were by email and phone...I paid nothing down (on the purchase) and got nothing down (on the sale). My purchase was surveyed my sale was not. Both my deals went thru without a hitch...it helps when you are dealing with honest folks.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2005 : 20:10:38

All above comments seem correct to me after many purchases and sales. I would just add that any seller can say "you are perfectly welcome to survey, and I will assist by providing the vessel and all information I can, BUT the negotiations have been to my bottom line and that is where I get off, no matter what is discovered at the time of survey". I have had this stated to me, and have stated it to others, on occasion. On the other hand, it is quite common for there to be adjustment on the final price as a consequence of the survey. Ron Orion #2343 SW FL

Edited by - on

Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 00:49:27

~~I would just add that any seller can say "you are perfectly welcome to survey, and I will assist by providing the vessel and all information I can, BUT the negotiations have been to my bottom line and that is where I get off, no matter what is discovered at the time of survey". ~~

<center>__________________________________</center>

Ok, if this is the case, is it not wiser to just offer the asking price subject to survey and negotiate afterwards based on its findings? Lets face it, it's a 20 year old used boat ('84 fin keel, no pop-top, $6,500), the surveyor is going to find SOMETHING wrong with it that requires immediate attention that will cost money. If not, I'd be more than happy to pay the asking price for the boat.

It just seems like a waste of time to negotiate twice. Or is the initial negotiation where you find what the seller's bottom line is and then use the survey to see if the boat's value (in the surveyor's opinion) matches your price?

I would think (and I know that's what gets me in trouble), that by offering the asking price subject to survey is a show of good faith that I'm serious about the boat. If the surveyor finds something major that needs attention, we can haggle then.

Or am I just shooting myself in the foot and showing myself to be a sucker willing to pay more than I should?

I appreciate all comments so far and look forward to more . . .

-Rich.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 10:28:46

Full-on IMHO follows:

Generally speaking, you'll find three kinds of sellers in this world.

1) Seller will jack the price up trying to rip somebody off.
2) Seller will jack the price up in full expectation of negotiating it down.
3) Seller will simply ask the 'fair value' of the boat in the first place.

Determining which class of seller the boat owner belongs to is the key to how you will proceed with your purchase. The most important information for you to have is knowing what the market value of the boat is. The rest of the decision on how to proceed is pretty much based on your personal judgement about the seller and your own philosophy.

If you've been 'shopping' C25's for awhile you should have a pretty good idea where the boat stands in your market area.

Further IMHO: $6,500 should get you a darn nice fin keel.. good+ sails, good+ rigging, engine etc. This will vary a lot by location though. Having a fin without trailer implies that you're on a fairly large sailing 'venue' with enough room to keep you happy for a long time.

The C25' real 'claim to fame' is that it's the about the biggest trailerable you can buy... it has enough size to be fairly comfortable plus the ability to move to different locations. If you don't have a large sailing venue, I'd hold out for a wing or swing (freshwater) on a trailer.

Hard to do if you have boat fever.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 11:05:35

When I bought my C25 I spent many weekends looking at sailboats in the $7.5K range. Newports, Columbias, Catalina 27, Cals, Ericksons, .... Bigger boats in this price range with inboard engines were mostly trashed - some with serious flaws. I grew discouraged.

I finally decided on the Catalina 25 mainly because its the most boat you can get for the money in this range. Also, parts are available, theres many out there for sale. Then I started looking only at C25s. I saw many in a wide range of conditions - mostly neglected junk, often way overpriced. But by doing this homework I knew the value of an older, well equipped, fin keel (no trailer) (ie. about $5500 in southern CA). I just about gave up on finding a good one.

One day a broker called me I had seen before when looking at a Erickson. He said he had the boat for me. It had not even been listed for sale. I said, OK, I'll come up. Well, the boat's in Long Beach (I was very tired of boat shopping by this time - I didn't want to drive to Long Beach). He said please come up, it will be worth it.

OK, the boat is cosmetically tired, but in great condition and very well equipped. The seller said he'd bought a new boat and needed this one sold. He said lets cut the negotiation, how about $6500? It was the best boat I'd seen in several months of looking.

I said OK, subject to sea trial, survey, and he help me deliver the boat to Dana Point (65 miles downwind). We shook hands on the deal and then I signed the offer to purchase with these conditions in writing and paid 10% down.

The next weekend we had the sea trial. Everything worked great. I signed off on acceptance of this.

After that we had the survey, for which I paid a total of $360 ($110 for the lift at a boatyard). The surveyor did not pass the boat. The keel bolts were so badly rusted. I told the seller "fix them or no deal". He said "OK". So we started the process of sistering the bolts, for which the seller paid $900.

I considered paying the surveyor look at the repair, but I decided that I would just inspect it. There are 6 new 3/4 inch stainless bolts 6 inches long into the keel, plus the old ones. I signed off on the survey. Note that, although the survey cost $360, it was essentially free because I got $900 in repairs thrown in by the seller.

I paid the balance and received the paperwork.

A few weeks later Dennis (the seller) and I spent the day sailing the boat to its new home.

All the cool things I got:

1978 C25 #398 SR Fin
Honda 8 HP 4 stroke in great condition
upgraded motor mount
Boat rigged with everything possible for racing
2 mainsails, roller furling jib, 3 hank on mylar racing headsails, spinnaker
whisker pole
autopilot
GPS
knotmeter
VHF and stereo
2 anchors and rode
all lines led aft
huge upgraded cockpit winches (worth about $1500 each)
many racing upgrades like new inner genoa track, adjustable backstay
cruising equipment: rail barbeque, galley equipment, propane stove, boat is modified for queensize bed in main salon.
lots more

Interior was trashed and original 25 year old cushions were junk. Cockpit cushions were very worn. I repaired and recovered these for about $200 and have since done many, many more upgrades and repairs.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 11:49:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 
Generally speaking, you'll find three kinds of sellers in this world.

1) Seller will jack the price up trying to rip somebody off.
2) Seller will jack the price up in full expectation of negotiating it down.
3) Seller will simply ask the 'fair value' of the boat in the first place. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are also those people who believe their boat (or whatever) is worth a certain dollar amount regardless of market value.

A few years ago, an elderly couple at my marina were selling their baby, a Columbia 26, which they bought new, but were having problems finding a buyer. The problem; their asking price, which was based on 25 years of their TLC, was about 4 times the fair market value. After languishing in the boatyard for a few years, they realized that their expectations might be too high so they let it go to a friend for pocket change.

Moral of the story: Something is only worth, what someone else is willing to pay for it. 

I've always dealt directly with sellers and, after properly assessing the merchandise and their asking price, instead of offering a bid, I will turn to them an ask, "What's your best price?"
This way I have an idea what they would like to get out of the boat without insulting them with a low ball or paying over what they thought they could reasonably get. From this "best" price and using good judgement, I either accept this price or counter accordingly.

When I bought North Star the asking price was ridiculously low and instead of insulting the seller with an even lower embarrassing bid, I asked him what his best was, and to my surprise he went even lower. Hiding my giddiness with all of my being, I responded, "I'll take it!"

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 16:33:42

Off topic but;
Jim, do you still have those headsails?
If so do you want to get rid of any of them?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 17:52:13

No, I've put the roller in the garage and am using all hanked on now. The boat points much better and only takes a few minutes more to set up and put away. I may rig a jib dousing line.

60 (new)
110 dacron
135 laminate
155 laminate

Besides the laminates are old and dirty with patches, but still tight, crisp and fun to sail with. 4 sail bags take up a lot of precious room, though!!!

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 19:53:57

I usually ask: "Is your price absolutely fixed, or do you have any room to maneuver at all?" This a tactful way to dicker. The owner can say "No, that is my bottom line", or--more commonly--"Well, I might give a little". Over the years, I have observed that in most cases, people do not expect to be offered their asking price, but rather something like 5 or ten percent less. If the boat is really ragged, all bets are off, anything from fifty percent off, on up. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, where an owner knows exactly how much they want, and no negotiation ensues. Hope this helps, ron srsk Orion SW FL

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 20:17:29

Has anyone used the NADA guide as a starting point besides me? It was very helpful just as a beginning price guide. "Bear" in upstate N.Y.

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 21:30:44

Rich,
I recently sold my C250 over the internet and bought a C30 from a brokerage. The brokerages in Texas use BUC Book: http://www.bucvalu.com/ for their boat values. The NADA guides are not consistent with BUC, I am not sure why. I would consult the BUC value and make an offer based on their data. And as you say re-negotiate after the Survey. Be sure to find a reputible surveyor and it is better if he is not from the same neighborhood as the boat!
Steve Steakley

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 21:45:27

BUC is good, but remember, what you see on the free side is not the same as what you see on the subscriber side. The dealers and lenders use the subscriber side, and those numbers are what you will be quoted.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2005 : 21:48:05

Charlie,

Two years ago I got a 150 genoa from National...very reasonable and in stock. 800-611-3823 or www.nationalsail.com

Bert

Edited by - on

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