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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Looking at C25 Water Ballast

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wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/09/2005 : 19:01:12

Hello;

I am looking at a used Catalina 25 - water ballast version. I would appreciate it if someone could provide me with some advice about things I should watch for if I am looking at one - especially with respect to the water ballast system.

I currently have a 21' Sirius swing keel and therefore feel fairly comfortable looking at the other aspects of the boat but the water ballast feature is something I am not familiar with at all.

Thanks for your help.

Wally MacKinnon - First Star
email: wallymackinnon@hotmail.com

Wally MacKinnon
London, ON
Navasana - Hull #724
Sometimes can be found at: N 42 30 W 081 36

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2005 : 21:08:11

Hi Wally,

You must be looking at a c250 rather than a c25....

The bilge should be dry.... the 250s don't run a wet bilge unless something is amiss. Insist on a test sail and after returning to dock...check the bilge for any water. If there is... it might only be the seal around the ballast valve shaft. This location only leaks when the boat is heeled a few degrees however...so the next step would be to dry up any water and then let the boat sit for an hour and recheck to be sure that the bilge remains dry. If so, you can be assured that the ballast tank integrity is ok.

Check the operation of the center board... the board always takes a fair effort, but any undo effort means that the retract system needs attention. The problem can be a single item like the turning ball at the bottom of the tube or it can be the sum of drag at several points.

Check to see which rudder version is on the boat. There have been three. You will want either the 2nd or third. If it has the 2nd kickup rudder, IMHO its the best of the bunch.

Does the boat have wheel steering? If so, does it have a single or double cable system. If the single, it will need replacing. There are two options to do that. An Edson upgrade or a conversion away from the Edson cables. The Edson upgrade is around $550 and the conversion is $300 , the conversion is significantly cheaper and significantly better.

You don't say what year model your looking at so I will cover a few of the bases if it is any early model...there have been small changes over the years...none of them major but a few could be of concern. Early models did not have the stern seats, dedicated propane locker, coaming foot steps, fresh water tank forward...etc.

If it is an early model... I've not regretted not having the stern seats and wouldn't think of retro fitting them but a great many love them.

The lack of the propane locker is no big deal...there are easy work arounds...in fact, if your a cruiser and gear stowage is important... the propane locker took up very valuable real estate... I'm glad I don't have it. Two coleman cannisters fit in the fuel locker above a 6 gal gas tank and will last at least ten days each while cruising using them for both the galley stove and cockpit grill.

The coaming footsteps I'm sure were a great addition but again, not too big a deal as also the lack of fresh water tanks in the V berth area, they can be added easily.

Otherwise, check every thing else as you would any sailboat.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/09/2005 21:12:19

wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 23:42:04

Arlyn;

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your knowledge with me. It will be tremendously helpful when (if) I get a chance to look at this boat. Unfortunately, I will not get a chance to sail the one I am intersted in because it is in a northern location and all water is either deathly cold or already frozen over. This thing is sitting on its trailer in a storage compound. Do you have any alternate suggestions about checking the integrity of the ballast tanks. Is there an air pressure or water dye test or anything like that? Also, if I do decide to take a chance, how big a deal is it to resolve a leaking situation if there is a small problem? Can you treat it just like any other leak on a boat that does not have a ballast tank?

Best regards;

Wally

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 08:55:31

Wally,

With only one leaking ballast tank (self imposed by an owner added screw a bit too long) reported on this forum, there is no need for undo concern. My suggestion was based on a possibility and a reasonableness in simply examining the bilge to see if it were dry. I'd simply pose the question and watch the response.

A low pressure air test... hmmmm...but it would take a long time... can you imagine pressuring to perhaps three lbs and then waiting a week to see if it went down...which it probably would, escaping aound the valve shaft.... now your paranoid, wondering if its escape was natural or otherwise.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 20:23:07

DON'T DO IT! Lbs sq in builds up tremendous pressure quickly. I have no idea how many square inches the tank is. One cubic foot has 864 sq in of surface area! Times 3psi is 2500 lbs of force! When we test aircraft fuel tanks, we only use a fraction of a psi.

Tom.

Edited by - on

wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 08:39:52

Tom;

Thanks for the advice about the air test, I'll be sure not to try that one!

Wally

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 11:07:35

Another consideration in the formula PV=NRT is the "T". If you pump air pressure into your tank, at say night time after you get home from work, and the boat is in the sun the next two or three days, guess what happens to the pressure? Pressure and Temperature are directly proportional. When one goes up, so does the other.
(I can't believe I actually remembered that formula from 25 years ago!)

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:18:00

It is important to realize how the boat and the tank are structured, which is fairly simple: Four snap together plastic pieces. Hull, deck, hull liner, deck liner. Imagine just the hull, no liner, (which is the floor you walk on, ALL the furniture, the V berth the aft birth, the head sink, the galley an the real simulated T&G that goes up the side , yes it's all ONE PIECE), so just an empty hull. Now, glass (as in fibreglass) in a horizontal shelf, starting at the bow, connected all around the hull, to right under the companion way, where it terminates vertically down to the hull. In the center the "tank" you have formed is about (guess) a foot or so high. Now, plumb a vent in the bow up into the anchor locker, drill a large hole in the hull near the aft end, glass a tube on the top of the tank right above the hole and put a disk with threaded rod and wingnut through and through to close the hole. Voila, one ballast tank.

Now, for survey purpouses take everything out of the seat lockers, V-berth and stuff it in the aft berth, including the lids of all the lockers. With maximum access visualize the top of the tank. Stick your head down the square foot hole under the companion way and look forward. You will see that the floor you walk on is NOT the top of the tank, but part of the hull liner. It sits on the top of the tank with wads of resin saturated glass matt as spacers.

Now, follow the entire seam of the top of the tank all around. Look for serious cracks. Check around the vent tube up front. As much as possible check the aft vertical end of the tank all around where it attaches to the hull. Now check the tube on top of the tank. Open the valve all the way, push it down and go outside and inspect the disc, and rubber seal inside it. Now check around the entire outside of the hull at the height of the tank lid connection inside. Look for damage or signs of serious repairs.

If everything looks cool, you'll be just fine. Anything suspect, and you still want to buy the boat, have money put in escrow pending launch and verification this spring.

The only way the tank can get seriously damaged, is if the hull deformes enough (grounding, improper positioning on a trailer) to crack the connection between the hull and the "lid". Much of it is accessable and repairable, some is not. (Under the head and the galley for instance)

Visualize, then see the thing without the clutter around it, check it. My $0.03

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 01/13/2005 13:21:05

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